Thoughts on 53g vmax.

[Rock Knocker]

A Coyote quartered towards you, 30 yards in the open, not moving is not a less than marginal hunting shot. IT IS IF YOU ARE SHOOTING VARMINT BULLETS, not even unmarginal but unethical from my experience.

The only hunting ive done more than coyote is archery whitetail, I know bones and shots and saving meat, the first and only deer i have lost archery hunting was my first shot when i was 14. New comers need to know the glaring shortcomings of these bullets and I dont understand the hype at all.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I had to add this, exactly what I mean about defensive situation, it is some random youtube comment I just found on a video, it could be a joke, at first i thought it was but rereading it sounds like he means it. I copied and pasted it. supposedly 55 Vmax vs 150lb cougar attack, fun story...

***Great Podcast. You answered alot of my questions. Alittle over a year ago my nieghbor called and said a cougar is going to kill your 2 week old calf, so I grabbed the nearest weapon to me, ran out to my back yard and sure enough the cougar was climbing over my fence heading to the calf, so I hit him in the ribs 2 times at about 120 yards before he turned from the calf to runing at me. That was a great opportunity to work over his chest in front. At about 25 yards from me he turned broadside, so I worked his ribs over some more. He ran another 85 plus yards and climbed over 2 fences before going down. I shot 23 rounds and think I hit 20 times. I had an ar-15 16" barrel 55 grain hornady v maxs. 1 round hit him in the spine right between the shoulder blades as he was climbing over the fence and he still ran another 40 yards. I was pretty sure the bullets were expanding to fast on this 150 plus lb male cougar. If I were 8 secounds later that calf wouldn't have survived. You have to use what you can get your hands on at the time things go down.***

I dont think that guy had Vmax in his 16" AR for a prairie dog problem, probably because of over marketing but it was not a good idea. 2 months ago my neighbor told me he saw a cougar on his neighbors property line and i sneak around alone making rabbit squeeks in the night.

 

[TXCOONDOG]

I will never use Vmax or any other soft varmint bullet for coyotes again. I used them in 223 from a 16" barrel but loaded hot. They will regularly fail to drop a quartered coyote if shot in the shoulder and those angled shots are large splash damage if you find the dog. When you have them loaded hot to try to get them through a coyote bone they will destroy fox and bobcat pelts.... At 22-250 velocities you end up in some different dimension of physics and there are less problems but in a 223 they are a huge handicap. 53gr TSX can do so, SO much more than a Vmax can, coyotes and fox DRT with consistent damage no matter what range, angle, bones dont matter, fox, coyote or bobcat size animal... Vmax were literally developed to pop rodents. I love the 65gr SGK also, the first coyote i got with one of those and I litertally mag dumped the last of my Vmax into my berm for some fun close up practice.

Not my video(it was just posted, it could be someone here, I hope it helps with views and doesnt get taken negatively out of context, this video shows exactly what happened to me also) but this guy is using 53Vmax and having clear failures on a coyote shoulder because the dog wasnt just quite perfectly cooperative. I tried 52 berger varmints before 53 Vmax and theres almost no difference, poor, poor handicapped performance. I night hunt in MN with a bright moon, most my shots are under 100 yards. TSX and SGK shoot great for me but even if they shot 1.5moa, even 2moa I would chose them over a .5moa Vmax.

I just found the pic of the last coyote i hit with Vmax, sorry, old camera wouldnt do night shots, probably for the better on this one.

Just like in the video at 10:12 the coyote was quartered towards me, 30 yards away looking eye to eye and I aimed for vitals behind the angled shoulder. This coyote went 300 yards, pelt ruined, literally blood SOAKED from neck to tail on the side he is laying on. Ive had others completely get away. When im calling in coyotes 90% of my shot are coyotes coming into the call, heading towards me at an angle, shoulder quartered towards me and the varmint bullets cant do it. Most my broadside shots are on spooked coyotes heading away or quartered away shots on coyotes heading away at high speed.

Any other .224 on the market beside these soft gopher varmint bullet and these are DRT hits without the pelt damage. 65gr SGK and 53gr TSX are 5 times the bullet vmax and 52 berger varmint is, TSX expand well and can penetrate more oak wood than Vmax can penetrate GEL! Hunting aside as well, its my AR ammo so I consider emegency deffensive type stuff. Ive seen 53gr vmax 223 gel tests that show 70% of Vmax damage in less than 3.5 inches of gel, the gel BB calibration of 650fps with a pump up kids BBgun is 3.5 inches! A kids BB gun im sure cant even penetrate most thick winter jackets or a coyote shoulder. Handicaped to the point my conspiracy brain is worried it could be the industry trying to neuter AR 223 users any way they can(ban green tips, push red tips), its as close to a bean bag round as you can make for centerfire. Im serously curious how much good soft pistol armor can stop Vmax??? You can see in the video the direct hit of the Vmax stopped the 30-35lb(?) coyote for under a second then it runs off, whats it going to do to an armored 230lb badguy??!!! And the 22-250 and wildcat guys are going to run into the same thing at longer range.

I hope ANTIFA loads vmax.

Yes, the video is one of the PM members. Matter of fact, he posted in this thread so maybe he'll speak up!

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I've been shooting V-max bullets for longer than I can remember. I've used everything from .17 to .30. Grain weights from 17gr to 110gr, and I've used almost every other bullet you can imagine. V-max will absolutely kill coyotes, just like everything else will. Ive never seen a splash on an animal. I've seen bullets that were beyond the rpm speed they can handle come apart in flight. I think when people are describing "splash", that bullet was already in pieces when it hit the coyote. Shot placement is everything. Also, all bullets can fail. If you shoot anything long enough, you'll see what appears to be a failure. Imagine engineering something that will have a predictable response at 1,400fps and 4,000fps, at any temperature, any humidity, any twist rate, etc, and then the medium they detonate in changes massively on every opportunity. There is zero reason to disparage V-max bullets though, I will absolutely guarantee that there are more coyotes killed with V-max every year than all other bullets combined. Not perfect, but nothing is, nor can it be..

 

[DAA]

I think when people are describing "splash", that bullet was already in pieces when it hit the coyote. Shot placement is everything.

Some are, I'm sure. Especially with fast twist barrels being so trendy. But "splash" is real. It happens. And it can result in good shot placement not producing a clean kill.

At the velocities I like to run, plastic tips have generally proven erratic performers on coyote. Some have worked well. Most have not. All in slow twist barrels, RPM isn't the issue. Not having enough ass to penetrate shoulder at 4,000 fps is the issue.

But in my .223, 60 gr. BTips, crawling along at not quite 3,000 fps, work quite well. And .243 55 BTips at a bit under 4300 fps have been pretty deadly. Often quite messy, but always a very instantly very dead coyote.

- DAA

 

[DoubleUp]

There is a guy who goes by the handle "Seafire" over on the Campfire website who does a lot of shooting with reduced loads. He found that when V-max bullets are slowed down they would penetrate completely through 5-inch diameter oak trees, but when fired at high speed they would not. I believe he actually used some reduced loadings for his granddaughters to take blacktails on the west coast using V-max bullets in the 243. In one of these discussions not too long ago Cal Taylor who posts here occasionally and has killed more coyotes than most of us have seen said something to the effect that there are so many variables that it is very difficult if not impossible to say X-bullet does so and so.

 

[SupressYourself]

Yes, the video is one of the PM members. Matter of fact, he posted in this thread so maybe he'll speak up!

Yeah, that's my channel, but it's actually my brothers video. He asked me to post it for him because he doesn't want to mess with setting up his own channel. He runs the 53s in his AR, which he uses for thermal hunting. He hasn't been doing the thermal thing long, so doesn't have a lot of data points. However, he's killed truckloads daytime hunting, mostly with a 243 Win and 87 Berger, so he knows how to shoot coyotes.

Personally, I've run the 50 v-max in a 223, and 53 in a 22-250 for many years, and I don't recall one ever getting away. Most of them are bang-flop, especially with the 22-250. I have had a few run a bit from my 6 Creed with the 108 ELDM. It seems to occasionally act like an FMJ. However, I've shot dozens now with my 22 Creed and 75 ELDM, and they all go straight down if I hit anywhere near the vitals.

This is a good discussion, and all experiences are worth considering, but I think one of us needs to simmer down a bit. When bullet choice makes one a "liberal", things have gone a little off track...

 

[Lazer32]

I have only ever shot 1 coyote so my info is a drop of water in the ocean. Shot her in the chest looking right at me. 55grain V-max going 2850fps at 80ish yards. She didn't take a single step, dropped right where she stood, front legs splayed out.

 

[Rock Knocker]

There is a guy who goes by the handle "Seafire" over on the Campfire website who does a lot of shooting with reduced loads. He found that when V-max bullets are slowed down they would penetrate completely through 5-inch diameter oak trees, but when fired at high speed they would not. I believe he actually used some reduced loadings for his granddaughters to take blacktails on the west coast using V-max bullets in the 243. In one of these discussions not too long ago Cal Taylor who posts here occasionally and has killed more coyotes than most of us have seen said something to the effect that there are so many variables that it is very difficult if not impossible to say X-bullet does so and so.

WHAT? Many people shoot Vmax with the idea they are safer for ricochets and safer down range for livestock. Youre telling me a bullet that cant penetrate a coyote shoulder at 30 yards can go on to penetrate oak a miler later, these get worse and worse.

these bullets are a joke. I want to know if that cougar attack story is real?

And I literally said, I hope ANTIFA shoots Vmax, AND I MEAN THAT! Heck, I would help pay a little to ship all Vmax to China.

 

[Duhhh]

WHAT? Many people shoot Vmax with the idea they are safer for ricochets and safer down range for livestock. Youre telling me a bullet that cant penetrate a coyote shoulder at 30 yards can go on to penetrate oak a miler later, these get worse and worse.

these bullets are a joke. I want to know if that cougar attack story is real?

And I literally said, I hope ANTIFA shoots Vmax, AND I MEAN THAT! Heck, I would help pay a little to ship all Vmax to China.

Here’s some videos of the 53 max on some
“less than ideal angles.” One of the shots is even from northern Minnesota, where one came into the open. This is just a tit bit of my experience with them and it’s been positive so far.

As someone that’s dealt with some ANTIFA and other scum, the hope is they never have the ability to be armed in any fashion.

As to your previous comment on a vmax not performing on a 230lb man. I have a former coworker that worked for a backwoods PD in the south years ago. Apparently they had no funding for duty ammo so he loaded his own. Got in a shooting with a gun and used a vmax in his duty weapon. It definitely worked according to him. I didn’t see any of the pictures or official docs though. But the guy was a good dude and I don’t have anything to doubt.

 

[DAA]

This is a good discussion, and all experiences are worth considering, but I think one of us needs to simmer down a bit. When bullet choice makes one a "liberal", things have gone a little off track...

There are people who get very emotional over other peoples choice of bullets. It's really weird, but it really happens.

- DAA

 

[DoubleUp]

WHAT? Many people shoot Vmax with the idea they are safer for ricochets and safer down range for livestock. Youre telling me a bullet that cant penetrate a coyote shoulder at 30 yards can go on to penetrate oak a miler later, these get worse and worse.

these bullets are a joke. I want to know if that cougar attack story is real?

And I literally said, I hope ANTIFA shoots Vmax, AND I MEAN THAT! Heck, I would help pay a little to ship all Vmax to China.

No Sir, I'm not telling you anything. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible.

 

[Rock Knocker]

There are people who get very emotional over other peoples choice of bullets. It's really weird, but it really happens.

- DAA

Yes, this topics hits me in a philosophical way and im on half sleep this week because of the full moon and yesturday was my birthday with a few drinks, I have argued against these bullets for a long time like many things, and like everything else in life the soft and weak prevail due to some modern trend.

These were designed for prairie dogs, the designers will tell you that, I just listened to a podscast where they themselves said these are not coyote hunting bullets. Have you seen the movie "Idiocracy" where 500years in the future modern medicine is ruined because the most profitable and popular pharmaceuticals were erection and hair growth drugs so thats all that science researched for centuries. Thats where hunting bullet design is going. The designers sat down and designed every aspect of the Vmax to explode on contact for rodents, thats not what I think bullet designers should be doing but 80% of the market loves it.

 

[Yotarunner]

There are people who get very emotional over other peoples choice of bullets. It's really weird, but it really happens.

- DAA

Some folks make assumptions based on a few bad shots then get pretty upset when they find out they are wrong.

 

[Rock Knocker]

LOLOLOL ****facepalm knockout*****

These are rodent bullets and they act like it, you must chose shots like an archer when that is completely unnecessary and undiscussed, they cant hit bones, end of story, what they excel in is a novelty trick for the prairie dog fad.

Look at Hornadys website, basically all their .224 bullet are made for paper and rodents, thats because of the consumers.

 

[Yotarunner]

They

LOLOLOL ****facepalm knockout*****

These are rodent bullets and they act like it, you must chose shots like an archer when that is completely unnecessary and undiscussed, they cant hit bones, end of story, what they excel in is a novelty trick for the prairie dog fad.

Look at Hornadys website, basically all their .224 bullet are made for paper and rodents, thats because of the consumers.

They also list bthp match, eld match and fmj as varmint bullets. Would you consider 55gr fmj a perfect prairie dog pill?
" you have to choose shots like an archer"
You don't choose your shots when coyote hunting? Like I said before if you don't choose proper shots with VMAX then they are not for you and heavy deer bullets will be more suited.

I challenge you to load up some VMAX and shoot 10 coyotes. Any angle as long as the bullet is entering center chest. And come back to tell us how they worked. No legs, glancing shots, gut shots spine shot, neck etc etc

 

[Rock Knocker]

They

They also list bthp match, eld match and fmj as varmint bullets. Would you consider 55gr fmj a perfect prairie dog pill?
" you have to choose shots like an archer"
You don't choose your shots when coyote hunting? Like I said before if you don't choose proper shots with VMAX then they are not for you and heavy deer bullets will be more suited.

I challenge you to load up some VMAX and shoot 10 coyotes. Any angle as long as the bullet is entering center chest. And come back to tell us how they worked. No legs, glancing shots, gut shots spine shot, neck etc etc

See this is just obstinance and not listening. I already said I remember shooting 6 or 7 dogs in one season and my two buddies doing just about the same, I will not be testing them again, we each had similar results and the year before that the three of us did it with 52gr varmint. I know what happens with a perfect shot, all else fail!

I already said Im night hunting at close range, with cover everywhere, these are moving coyote shaped silhouettes and its not like im trying to shoot them through the butt, im talking about a quartered shoulder blade, you act like a bullet exploding on a coyote shoulder blade is normal and that a quartering towards you close range shot is unethical. Even quartered away potentially shoot through the guts is untrustworthy. Most bullets can handle this and a modern 3000fps centerfire for coyote doesnt need to be treated like a bow and arrow on a deer. Youre admitting the handicap but not realizing it a handicap. Vmax can only be used at a 0degree angle facing you or 90 degree broadside shots and nothing else reliably beside gophers and paper.

I challenger you to shoot 3 coyotes with 65SGK or TSX when they are quartered towards you... then especially if this is some type of carbine AR you may want in emergency, shoot some other stuff with the TSX and SGK.

 

[Duhhh]

See this is just obstinance and not listening. I already said I remember shooting 6 or 7 dogs in one season and my two buddies doing just about the same, I will not be testing them again, we each had similar results and the year before that the three of us did it with 52gr varmint.

I already said Im night hunting at close range its not like im trying to shoot them through the butt, im talking about a quartered shoulder blade, you act like a bullet exploding on a shoulder blade is normal and that a quartering towards you close range shot is unethical. Most bullets can handle this and a modern 3000fps centerfire doesnt need to be treated like a bow and arrow on a deer. Youre admitting the handicap but not realizing it a handicap.

I challenger you to shoot 3 coyotes with 65SGK or TSX when they are quartered towards you...

But I just showed you some video evidence of quartering too and angled shots with the vmax. No problems with penetration haha.

 

[Yotarunner]

See this is just obstinance and not listening. I already said I remember shooting 6 or 7 dogs in one season and my two buddies doing just about the same, I will not be testing them again, we each had similar results and the year before that the three of us did it with 52gr varmint. I know what happens with a perfect shot, all else fail!

I already said Im night hunting at close range, with cover everywhere, these are coyote shaped silhouettes and its not like im trying to shoot them through the butt, im talking about a quartered shoulder blade, you act like a bullet exploding on a coyote shoulder blade is normal and that a quartering towards you close range shot is unethical. Even quartered away potentially shoot through the guts is untrustworthy. Most bullets can handle this and a modern 3000fps centerfire for coyote doesnt need to be treated like a bow and arrow on a deer. Youre admitting the handicap but not realizing it a handicap. Vmax can only be used at a 0degree angle facing you or 90 degree broadside shots and nothing else reliably beside gophers and paper.

I challenger you to shoot 3 coyotes with 65SGK or TSX when they are quartered towards you... then especially if this is some type of carbine AR you may want in emergency, shoot some other stuff with the TSX and SGK.

Any shot at any angle that puts the bullet into the center of the chest (vitals) is what I'm trying to say.
Since we are hindered by it being a forum and not in person I'm unable to use crayons to explain it in any simpler terms so il leave it at that and say to watch the video duhhh posted.

 

[Rock Knocker]

But I just showed you some video evidence of quartering too and angled shots with the vmax. No problems with penetration haha.

Youre shooting 22-250, I said from the start thats a different ball game. Im talking about bullets that have flooded the marked that cripple carbine ARs and everyone says their better than sliced bread. Its a softer, weaker, made to explode bullet, you and I know it.