Rock Knocker
Well-known member
So a wad with 4 shallow cuts caused pressure when a wad with 4 deep cuts didnt cause problems?
Thats the kind of stuff im going to need to learn.
Shotshell components???
- Thread starter Rock Knocker
- Start date
Thats the kind of stuff im going to need to learn.
Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
Yes. Didnt expect it to happen myself till i tried it. Used the load off of shotgun scientists youtube channel. They recived the load data from a Saltcreek customs that loads custom 10 gauge heavy payload shells. He loaded some up with 3oz loads on youtube himself. They use the same powder and charge with both 2.5oz and 3oz payloads using 45 grains of Lil Gun. Ive tried a 3oz payload (without buffer or a felpeo cork gasket cushion wad inside my wad like i tested the 2.5 oz loads) but the pattern blew after 25 yards. The buffered 2.5 oz load goes right to the top of my tuff wad so im guessing thats why the pattern holds better vs the overflow of 3oz loading.
...anyways, i used a BPI unslit tough wad. I tested woth cuting down to the rings that they put around them. There are 5 rings from way up top to almost all the way to the base of wad. Four slits down to the 3rd ring(shalllowest cut) i blew out my primer, the gim recoiled alot harder, and my POA was a foot higher at 55 yards. Four cuts down to the 4th and 5 th rings no pressure signs
Also no pressure signs with only 2 slits down to the 5th ring.
Saved my wads from the test as well. The 2 slit was open wider but folded back in. The shallow high pressure round was 2nd from the left. It didnt really open the wad up much.
These are my patterns at 55 yards with the 2.5 oz #5 lead loads. The first target below is the high pressure load that patterned high...that also kicked like a mule compaird to the rest of the loads and also blew out my primer.
The rest all hit hit pretty much POA at 55 yards...
I liked how even the 4 slits to the 4th ring patterned even though i had more hits with 4 cuts to the 5th ring at 55 yards....It just had donut holes in the pattern. Im sure they would all tip over a turkey but figured the 4th ring down would be more forgiving with a more even pattern. Also like the the looks of the folded pedals the best with the load.
...anyways, i used a BPI unslit tough wad. I tested woth cuting down to the rings that they put around them. There are 5 rings from way up top to almost all the way to the base of wad. Four slits down to the 3rd ring(shalllowest cut) i blew out my primer, the gim recoiled alot harder, and my POA was a foot higher at 55 yards. Four cuts down to the 4th and 5 th rings no pressure signs
Also no pressure signs with only 2 slits down to the 5th ring.
Saved my wads from the test as well. The 2 slit was open wider but folded back in. The shallow high pressure round was 2nd from the left. It didnt really open the wad up much.
These are my patterns at 55 yards with the 2.5 oz #5 lead loads. The first target below is the high pressure load that patterned high...that also kicked like a mule compaird to the rest of the loads and also blew out my primer.
The rest all hit hit pretty much POA at 55 yards...
I liked how even the 4 slits to the 4th ring patterned even though i had more hits with 4 cuts to the 5th ring at 55 yards....It just had donut holes in the pattern. Im sure they would all tip over a turkey but figured the 4th ring down would be more forgiving with a more even pattern. Also like the the looks of the folded pedals the best with the load.
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Rock Knocker
Well-known member
Those are some good looking turkeys! Do you have an idea of what would cause that load to have pressure problems? Can wads "bind up" in the barrel or cause them to stick more or is it more a problem with the choke and constriction at the muzzle?
For shotgun loading is there a "working the load up" phase, or ladder test, stepping up the load in increments watching for pressure? And I assume if there is a phase of working the charge up then that needs to be restarted from the lightest charge if components like wads or shot is changed?
Again, im going to get curious about this and im going to tinker around. What I really want is a home rolled 3" flight control wad 4buck and 2 3/4" flight control wad #2 TSS. Ive got a bunch of manuals on the way and Im going to be reading, improvising wont be the first thing I do but I need to learn all about this.
The way I see it, Ive got a 20" cylinder barrel I want tight patterns from, thats probably going to need chokes but I can test some stuff first. A dirt cheap local 12ga i could buy for $150 and strap to a tree stump and pull the trigger with a string.... It will cost me over $300 to drill my barrel for chokes and buy two chokes to start.... I can test and learn a lot more with the old tree stump gun, if I make a homemade flight control wad I really like, I can work up loads and even finish off by greasing the shells in the trash gun and if the gun survives that my beefy BPSs should be fine. Thats an idea for down the road but I really do like the idea of $150 on a trash gun and start experimenting compared to $300-$400 just for chokes.
For shotgun loading is there a "working the load up" phase, or ladder test, stepping up the load in increments watching for pressure? And I assume if there is a phase of working the charge up then that needs to be restarted from the lightest charge if components like wads or shot is changed?
Again, im going to get curious about this and im going to tinker around. What I really want is a home rolled 3" flight control wad 4buck and 2 3/4" flight control wad #2 TSS. Ive got a bunch of manuals on the way and Im going to be reading, improvising wont be the first thing I do but I need to learn all about this.
The way I see it, Ive got a 20" cylinder barrel I want tight patterns from, thats probably going to need chokes but I can test some stuff first. A dirt cheap local 12ga i could buy for $150 and strap to a tree stump and pull the trigger with a string.... It will cost me over $300 to drill my barrel for chokes and buy two chokes to start.... I can test and learn a lot more with the old tree stump gun, if I make a homemade flight control wad I really like, I can work up loads and even finish off by greasing the shells in the trash gun and if the gun survives that my beefy BPSs should be fine. Thats an idea for down the road but I really do like the idea of $150 on a trash gun and start experimenting compared to $300-$400 just for chokes.
Check out Mike Orlen in Amherst Mass. for choke work. If interested I'll pm you with a price list, much cheaper than Briley and fast turn around.
Now copper is just a wash. I use Nickel Plated from BPI, others have told me NP for m Precision Reloading is better but the BPI i use works fine. I don't load for extended range predator loads as most of my predator shotgun loads go into drillings and can't mbo guns so I have the rifle barrel for longer shots.
I just bought a few bags of wads here in the PM classifieds. I was surprised to see everything I use in the batch. I do load al my own trap, skeet and waterfowl loads as I have a number of 2.5" chambered shotguns and ones old enough to need Bismuth for waterfowl.
Now copper is just a wash. I use Nickel Plated from BPI, others have told me NP for m Precision Reloading is better but the BPI i use works fine. I don't load for extended range predator loads as most of my predator shotgun loads go into drillings and can't mbo guns so I have the rifle barrel for longer shots.
I just bought a few bags of wads here in the PM classifieds. I was surprised to see everything I use in the batch. I do load al my own trap, skeet and waterfowl loads as I have a number of 2.5" chambered shotguns and ones old enough to need Bismuth for waterfowl.
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Most shotguns that blow up never show any pressure signs before they blow up. Back in the old days I used some old BPI Hevi-Shot, Steel powder data with the newer Steel powder. I shot well over 100 loads with no problems. When I had those loads tested by Precision they were just over 14,800 psi or about 3,300 psi over MAX pressure.
Below is a link to my old post.
www.predatormasters.com
Below is a link to my old post.
Warning on older Alliant Steel Powder Shotgun reloading data!
Not to long ago I found out that many of my 12 ga coyote and goose loads that I reloaded using BPI's Handloading Hevi-Shot Fourth Edition manual have way to high of pressures. I sent off some 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-3/8 oz loads to have tested. I based these loads off of BPI and RSI's Hevi-Shot and...
www.predatormasters.com
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Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
I load a cut down 2 7/8" 10 gauge hull for my 1873 damascus charles daly SxS with 1 5/8 oz BPI nickel plated shot along with a 100 grains of FG. Pattern never seems consistent whatever load i've tried in the old gun. I can tell you my copper plated chilled lead and un coated plain old magnum lead shot is way harder than the junky BPI nickel plated shot. I got suckered in to buying some to improve patterns was was harder alloy to increase pentration and TKO value. Nope, the BPI nickel plated shot is super soft vs my magnum bare lead shot and every copper plated shot i have laying around. Easy test. Saw a guy on youtube do it to give credit to. Just set one shot on another and slowly sweeze in a pliers. The BPI nickel plated shot flattens first every time.
I would have to guess the reason the shallow cut wad was over pressured is because it didnt open up and release the pellets. Don't really know myself since everthing was exactly the same in the load accept for the LENGTH of the wad slits. Its the only thing that tells me what happened imo. Thats why the shotgun load books tell you to follow the load data to a "T". There really isnt any powder charge ladder testing data out there that im aware of. I have experiemented with my damasus and black powder loads...but thats on me if something goes south.
I did try some 2oz loads with another powder. I found three loads with all the same components with three different powder charges. I found the load with 39 and 40 grains first. I tried 39 grains. It shattered my 10 guage browning gold buffer and broke off an aluminum side plate pin! Didnt know it happened and hunted with it one morning to find out i had plastic chunks in the chamber. I did not know it happened that day and never tried the load again because the recoil felt like 2ce the spank it normally did. I found the 36 grain load after the fact and stuck with it (and replaced my gun parts). It patterned really good but no where as good as a federal 2oz flight control load. The 2.5 oz loads will pattern WAY tighter than the 2oz factory flight control wads.IMO your not going to get much help with sbotgun shell reloading because everyone will tell you to folllow what ever load data to a "T". I will rotate my 10 gauge modern hulls and wads for data because internally they are all made the same. The 12 gauge hulls are different inside. Never loaded for a 12 yet. I drew my turkey myself...lol. I I picked up a roll of 3m usps packing paper at a Micheals crafts for $3.59 with coupon. Think it was 30"x 30'. Made for cheap 55 yard targets. If I remember right Those were eight or ten inch circles in the middle. I've been reloading centerfire and casting Over 30 years, but shotgun reloading was a new venture to me and just started a few years ago. Every time I asked a question I was told but I was gonna blow my damascus gun up...lol. I've shot at hundreds of times with up to a hundred and sixteen grains of Dupont FG and 1 5/8" loads. Are you even tried cutting down plastic wads and adding buffer. They were the tough wads. They never opened up and the patterns were horrible...lol. But zero pressure signs because to me a 100 grains of FG is similar to a 20 gauge load or light 12 gauge trap load for pressure. Shotgun scientists made homemade flight comtrol wads. Imo you'll never get the cuts consistently enough to get good consistent patterns. Your better off getting some sample wads in every co figuration and pattern them yourself. I would also pick a choke to use and stick with it for testing.
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I load for my old English upland 10ga Damascus barreled, she's a light weight. I do 1 1/8 oz NP BB over 80gr of 2F, brass hull with fiber wads, decent predator load to 40 yards. 1 oz of 7 1/2 in a BPI non-steel wad over 700x in a cut down Federal 3 1/2 hull with a fold crimp for targets and light upland, 16ga fiber filler wad in the bottom of the wad. I converted a Mec 2 3/4" 20ga loader to.fold.crimp the short 10's. I size the Feds in a a Mec Super Sizer.
Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
Here my old post….
www.predatormasters.com
Double bearded gobbler with my 10 gauge 1873 Charles Daly and black powder loaded shells
I bought the gun for $45 at a rummage sale back in the mid 90’s. The action was rusted shut, firing pins seized, and one hammer missing. I looked for original hammers for over two decades and finally gave up. I bought the closest looking hammers I could find from Dixie Gun Works and had my buddy...
www.predatormasters.com
Rock Knocker
Well-known member
That old side by side is cool, i need to ask my dad what happened to it but from that side of the family he got a 10g side by side just like that. It was in pretty dang good shape too but it was a 10ga browned damascus gun with the side hammers we had no idea what to do with, im sure its still around. Nothing was missing and everything worked from what I remember. I should ask about that, its probably sitting in a box at my parents place. Me and a buddy were just talking we want to shoot more black powder, I just cut down a bunch of Buckthorn and cooked it to charcoal, Buckthorn is supposed to make the best black powder, Buckthorn is what Swiss black powder is made from. Thats another project im working on.....Here my old post….
Double bearded gobbler with my 10 gauge 1873 Charles Daly and black powder loaded shells
I bought the gun for $45 at a rummage sale back in the mid 90’s. The action was rusted shut, firing pins seized, and one hammer missing. I looked for original hammers for over two decades and finally gave up. I bought the closest looking hammers I could find from Dixie Gun Works and had my buddy...
I read you previous threat about the Steel powder also. What do you guys suggest for powder? I will read the manuals when they show up but all I have now is Longshot, I hear Longshot can have some pressure spikes? I was at the shop yesterday and they didnt have much available except $60 H4350!
Rock Knocker
Well-known member
I found a place here in MN, Ahlman's gunsmith near Rochester or Mankato, thats a bit further than driving distance though so I will probably ship the barrel anyways. They were much more reasonable than Briley, it looks like everything on Briley website might as well just say "Goucchi" on the side of it. I can choose Remington or TruChokes for less than half the price, but the aftermarket chokes are all $60-$80 also so I will quickly spend more on chokes than drilling the barrel. I think im going to have them cut the forcing cone in front of the chamber also, I havent heard any real world data on how that helps but Ive read a few times now that its supposed to help groups and especially with the larger shots like buckshot.
Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
I’d tell you to pickup some shotgun data reloading books. I didn’t have anyone around that loaded for shotguns or load books when I started. I ended up watching these guys and a few other people on YouTube. I’m really not a fan of using other people’s load data… so be careful. These guys seem pretty reputable and always get their data from reputable sources. You can also go on Hodgens website and get free data.
They load all different calibers. You just gotta go on and check their YouTube channels. Just use common sense and proceeded with caution because everybody in the planet says don’t change components. I of course changed my wads and a few components in mine. That’s why I had to test them to find out the shallow cut was high-pressure. I was basically just pattern testing and not expecting to get a high-pressure load, but at least I found out that shallow cuts with that load will create a higher pressure. There’s really not a lot of shotgun reloading books out there. For 10 gauge anyways. I picked up one called the mighty 10, which is just a thin paperback. I’ve picked up a lot of online data that I’ve copied in the last couple years for Damascus style barreled 10’s and keep in my load book. I won’t load anything in mine accept for black powder.
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derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Performance wise 3 ounces of number 4 buckshot cant compete with 1-1/2 oz of TSS #2 shot. 3 ounces of lead #4 buckshot has about 63 pellets per shell. 1-1/2 ounce of TSS #2 shot has about 81 pellets per shell.
1200 fps lead number 4 buckshot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 101.9 yards.
1300 fps TSS #2 shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 115.5 yards.
1200 fps lead number 4 buckshot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 101.9 yards.
1300 fps TSS #2 shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 115.5 yards.
Rock Knocker
Well-known member
3oz!!??
Ive still got to find good buckshot, if the nickle plated stuff at ballistic products is no good Im going to need to find some to order.
Hard cast is some of the best? Or copper coated?
Ive still got to find good buckshot, if the nickle plated stuff at ballistic products is no good Im going to need to find some to order.
Hard cast is some of the best? Or copper coated?
BBK
Active member
The nickel plated from BPI and Hornady are the best two.
I really dont like 4B for coyotes, its just a strange place in ballistics... Its so few pellets that it doesnt pattern good past 30-40yds, and such overkill that they go right through at 70yds+. Not to mention you need shoulder bruising cannon loads to get enough pellets.
Opposite for the lead BB i have tried, so many pellets that it just pulverizes them, yet not enough penetration to put them down hard and break bones.
Theres a happy medium somewhere in there around T size but I haven't tried to find it.
I really dont like 4B for coyotes, its just a strange place in ballistics... Its so few pellets that it doesnt pattern good past 30-40yds, and such overkill that they go right through at 70yds+. Not to mention you need shoulder bruising cannon loads to get enough pellets.
Opposite for the lead BB i have tried, so many pellets that it just pulverizes them, yet not enough penetration to put them down hard and break bones.
Theres a happy medium somewhere in there around T size but I haven't tried to find it.
Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
And I can't get a 3 oz pattern to hold up after 25 yards. I don't have any wads that are long enough so the last Half ounce of shot overflows above the top of all the different wads i currently have on hand. Two and a half ounces fills right to the top of my tough wads even with a cork cusion i made out of a felpro gasket that sits in the bottom of the wad to cushion the shot and keep it from melting and sticking to the wad bases. I love the discontinued remington HD BB shot for predator hunting. I still have a few in BB, BBB, and T sizes. Killed a coyote at a 109 yards with a Rem HD BB 3" 12 gauge factory load. Just not spending a $100 plus per pound(or per 2 pounds) for it. Ill take some cheap magnum lead shot in 25 pound bags for almost 2/3's less and call them a little closer. Leads kills them just as stone cold dead out to 65 yards for me with the right choke as HD shot. The HD shot shines when taking pokes alot farther than shotguns should be shooting at predators. Never tried lead any farther on yote than 65 yards. I normally set My calling up so I don't have a shot further than that.Anyways on purpose When i'm using a shotgun. The last time out to arizona , I made the mistake of being able to see too far and Watched a bobcat hang up at 175 yards! That sucked. I couldnt even begin to count how many calles in yotes, fox, and bobcat that have slammed to the ground using Federal wingshok 1 7/8oz lead BB loads. They nornally dont exit like the HD type shot dose but kills just a good for me out to 65 yards. I only aim for head and neck though.
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Rock Knocker
Well-known member
Alright, I will start out with Hornady. I can find 4buck, I havent found T yet.
BBK
Active member
Super Buck Lead Shot #T (8 lb) .200
#T Buckshot, .200 diameter, 31.3 pellets/oz, 8lb jar
www.ballisticproducts.com
Dultimatpredator
Well-known member
You can always cast your own. I need to get a number four buck mold. I believe Lee makes them. I’d end up using a lot of pewter so I could cast them pretty hard. I think most of my modern dinner plate pewter is around 22 for Burnell hardness you that I would save some money and just water drop my wheel weight lead. I’ve gotten up to 33 hardness by just water dropping in ice water. I’m guessing that’s a lot harder than the stuff you’re gonna buy over-the-counter that’s premade.
Rock Knocker
Well-known member
I would still love to get an idea of powders that I should start collecting for heavy 12ga. I travel around a bit for work and I can stop into shops and see what they have, today i will be driving past 3 different places I can check and then Im heading over to Cabelas on the way home.
The shotgun loading manuals are on the way but I havent seen whats in there yet. Im going to be loading 2 3/4" and 3" heavy loads, what powders have you guys tried out? Ive got the Longshot, Steel powder I will buy if I cant find it, ive read about HS-6 and Blue Dot also. I would like to know what sort of powders to look for though, I see a lot of Clays and Titewad around but Im not sure thats what Im looking for.
heck, I think I can run down to Ballistic Products today also.
The shotgun loading manuals are on the way but I havent seen whats in there yet. Im going to be loading 2 3/4" and 3" heavy loads, what powders have you guys tried out? Ive got the Longshot, Steel powder I will buy if I cant find it, ive read about HS-6 and Blue Dot also. I would like to know what sort of powders to look for though, I see a lot of Clays and Titewad around but Im not sure thats what Im looking for.
heck, I think I can run down to Ballistic Products today also.
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