Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?

Originally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: Hyperwrx

I also spoke about many parents not having the skill set to teach beyond 6th grade. You opted to not comment on that.

Actually I would have to disagree with you regarding this....not to insult the teachers however. If it is taken into consideration the average competency acquired by the average student, that a fair number of children will never be competent regardless of how skillful the teacher, and another percentage who could but won't because they don't care. The result will be a relatively small number of students who may be handicapped by their parents' skill set. There are ways and means that this missing education can be acquired later in life if is important to the student, regardless.



You explication is ridiculous and ignorant. What you are saying is the average kid can not learn regardless of who teaches him and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Based on the annual standardized tests the United States mandates of all students, millions of kids from 5 years old to 17 years old learn and are competent in their grade level curriculum.

What I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

* Literature
* Writing/composition
* Speech
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Algebra II
* Trigonometry, calculus, and statistics
* Biology
* Chemistry and physics
* Earth/space sciences, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, and physics
* U.S. history
* U.S. government
* Economics
* World history and geography
* Foreign Languages
* The Arts
* Computer Applications

I didn't include auto shop, industrial tech, agriculture, robotics, home economics, band, orchestra, and a ton of other electives that can be taken at high school.

The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally). IF you plan on having your son/daughter attend college (which not all do I understand) then you better bite the bullet and reenroll them back into public school once they hit 11 years old.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxOriginally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: Hyperwrx

I also spoke about many parents not having the skill set to teach beyond 6th grade. You opted to not comment on that.

Actually I would have to disagree with you regarding this....not to insult the teachers however. If it is taken into consideration the average competency acquired by the average student, that a fair number of children will never be competent regardless of how skillful the teacher, and another percentage who could but won't because they don't care. The result will be a relatively small number of students who may be handicapped by their parents' skill set. There are ways and means that this missing education can be acquired later in life if is important to the student, regardless.



You explication is ridiculous and ignorant. What you are saying is the average kid can not learn regardless of who teaches him and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Based on the annual standardized tests the United States mandates of all students, millions of kids from 5 years old to 17 years old learn and are competent in their grade level curriculum.

What I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:
* Literature
* Writing/composition
* Speech
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Algebra II
* Trigonometry, calculus, and statistics
* Biology
* Chemistry and physics
* Earth/space sciences, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, and physics
* U.S. history
* U.S. government
* Economics
* World history and geography
* Foreign Languages
* The Arts
* Computer Applications

I didn't include auto shop, industrial tech, agriculture, robotics, home economics, band, orchestra, and a ton of other electives that can be taken at high school.

The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally). IF you plan on having your son/daughter attend college (which not all do I understand) then you better bite the bullet and reenroll them back into public school once they hit 11 years old.


Wow...talk about ignorant! You have absolutely no FACTS on which to base your asnine ASSUMPTIONS and then you blast others for clouding the argument with facts. Countless studies have proven that homeschooled kids academically accel beyond their public school counterparts...but I guess you have been so indoctrinated with union BS and during the acquisition of your "education degree" (arduous for you, I'm sure) that you are blind to facts. What I can tell you, based on my "personal experience", is that very few high school teachers can competently teach their specific class, say nothing about having a diverse knowledge of the full spectrum.

And for your information, with the exception of foreign languages (most schools anymore use SOFTWARE, not teachers to teach this) and learning to play instruments (which is mostly personal perseverance and practice) I could teach ALL of the subjects you listed, and in many cases FAR beyond what the average teacher could or would do or know. The difference is, at home children are not held to the lowest common denominator and are free to accel at their own pace.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxOriginally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: Hyperwrx

I also spoke about many parents not having the skill set to teach beyond 6th grade. You opted to not comment on that.

Actually I would have to disagree with you regarding this....not to insult the teachers however. If it is taken into consideration the average competency acquired by the average student, that a fair number of children will never be competent regardless of how skillful the teacher, and another percentage who could but won't because they don't care. The result will be a relatively small number of students who may be handicapped by their parents' skill set. There are ways and means that this missing education can be acquired later in life if is important to the student, regardless.



You explication is ridiculous and ignorant. What you are saying is the average kid can not learn regardless of who teaches him and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Based on the annual standardized tests the United States mandates of all students, millions of kids from 5 years old to 17 years old learn and are competent in their grade level curriculum.

What I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

* Literature
* Writing/composition
* Speech
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Algebra II
* Trigonometry, calculus, and statistics
* Biology
* Chemistry and physics
* Earth/space sciences, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, and physics
* U.S. history
* U.S. government
* Economics
* World history and geography
* Foreign Languages
* The Arts
* Computer Applications

I didn't include auto shop, industrial tech, agriculture, robotics, home economics, band, orchestra, and a ton of other electives that can be taken at high school.

The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally). IF you plan on having your son/daughter attend college (which not all do I understand) then you better bite the bullet and reenroll them back into public school once they hit 11 years old.


Buddy you suffer from self importance to the extreme.

If I graduated from public school with good grades it only stands to reason that I could do a similiar job with my own children since all these pro's taught me so well ... What you infer is that past public school grads are incompetant and did not learn what they were taught. Was not that the past goverments mandate as well??

Regardless.....it is obvious you have not left the artificial world of public school yet........many of us ran like [beeep] when that last school bell rung and we ain't looked back yet.

Been nice talking with you.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/hp/frames.htm
 
Quote:What I can tell you, based on my "personal experience", is that very few high school teachers can competently teach their specific class, say nothing about having a diverse knowledge of the full spectrum.

Interesting. So these high school teachers that are required to obtain a minor in their designated field of study have not obtained the knowledge to teach the subject? I would have to call BS on that. Do you think a parent, with no college education in the designated subject could teach the curriculum better?

Quote:And for your information, with the exception of foreign languages (most schools anymore use SOFTWARE, not teachers to teach this) and learning to play instruments (which is mostly personal perseverance and practice) I could teach ALL of the subjects you listed, and in many cases FAR beyond what the average teacher could or would do or know. The difference is, at home children are not held to the lowest common denominator and are free to accel at their own pace.

Software? Where did you get that crap from? How ridiculous. Interesting enough I know you are wrong because #1- I take my students to the jr high and HS and see a teacher in front of the students teaching and more importantly my wife teaches at the secondary level and she nor her colleges do not use software to teach the students. How silly.
 
Originally Posted By: mjiorlered,
You make some interesting points. Some of your views are a bit...um...extreme but interesting none the less. I agree with you to an extent, about certain groups staying out of the educational system. I'm not so sure that putting it in the hands of parents is the best measure though. Many problems that we face today in education are the negative result of parents. I pose this question: Would we all be better off if we put education solely in the hands of educators?????? (notice I didn't say unions, gvt. etc.)
Mike

Mike,

I'm happy to respond to you. I am through with Earwrx after his latest "stupid refrain". Not sure what you view as "extreme". Could you provide specifics? I did not say I thought placing education solely in the hands of the parents is the best measure. Since government education is something that is here to stay, I do believe we can make the best of a bad situation by placing control into the hands of local, elected school boards. Under that arrangement, if a board or it's individual members are not doing the job, they can be fired, just as they would in the real world. They would be accountable to the voters, many of whom are interested and involved parents. This is also a good way to serve specific cultural and demographic needs for education within a community. The centralized, bloated, corrupt and inefficient monstrosities we have now is entirely the opposite of that. Obviously, privatization and competition are ultimately the best solutions to the issue, but that will never happen and to the detriment of our nation.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxQuote:What I can tell you, based on my "personal experience", is that very few high school teachers can competently teach their specific class, say nothing about having a diverse knowledge of the full spectrum.

Interesting. So these high school teachers that are required to obtain a minor in their designated field of study have not obtained the knowledge to teach the subject? I would have to call BS on that. Do you think a parent, with no college education in the designated subject could teach the curriculum better?

Quote:And for your information, with the exception of foreign languages (most schools anymore use SOFTWARE, not teachers to teach this) and learning to play instruments (which is mostly personal perseverance and practice) I could teach ALL of the subjects you listed, and in many cases FAR beyond what the average teacher could or would do or know. The difference is, at home children are not held to the lowest common denominator and are free to accel at their own pace.

Software? Where did you get that crap from? How ridiculous. Interesting enough I know you are wrong because #1- I take my students to the jr high and HS and see a teacher in front of the students teaching and more importantly my wife teaches at the secondary level and she nor her colleges do not use software to teach the students. How silly.



You keep narrowing the criteria. Now it's a "parent with no college education"...before it was just "parents". What next "parents who dropped out, smoked dope, and make less than $25,000/year"? And I'm sorry, but getting a minor in any given area is really a joke. So yes, I think teachers with a "minor" in whatever can be very incompetent at teaching in the area of said "minor". I don't have a "minor" in math, physics, chem, etc....but I know I could teach them better than the average high school teacher with a "minor" in said subject.

And yes, many schools use software. Just because your school doesn't really means nothing. Rosetta Stone and similar software is being used quite frequently because most high school foreign language teachers are/were inept. How silly (the teachers that is).
 
Originally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: HyperwrxOriginally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: Hyperwrx

I also spoke about many parents not having the skill set to teach beyond 6th grade. You opted to not comment on that.

Actually I would have to disagree with you regarding this....not to insult the teachers however. If it is taken into consideration the average competency acquired by the average student, that a fair number of children will never be competent regardless of how skillful the teacher, and another percentage who could but won't because they don't care. The result will be a relatively small number of students who may be handicapped by their parents' skill set. There are ways and means that this missing education can be acquired later in life if is important to the student, regardless.



You explication is ridiculous and ignorant. What you are saying is the average kid can not learn regardless of who teaches him and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Based on the annual standardized tests the United States mandates of all students, millions of kids from 5 years old to 17 years old learn and are competent in their grade level curriculum.

What I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

* Literature
* Writing/composition
* Speech
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Algebra II
* Trigonometry, calculus, and statistics
* Biology
* Chemistry and physics
* Earth/space sciences, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, and physics
* U.S. history
* U.S. government
* Economics
* World history and geography
* Foreign Languages
* The Arts
* Computer Applications

I didn't include auto shop, industrial tech, agriculture, robotics, home economics, band, orchestra, and a ton of other electives that can be taken at high school.

The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally). IF you plan on having your son/daughter attend college (which not all do I understand) then you better bite the bullet and reenroll them back into public school once they hit 11 years old.


Buddy you suffer from self importance to the extreme.

If I graduated from public school with good grades it only stands to reason that I could do a similiar job with my own children since all these pro's taught me so well ... What you infer is that past public school grads are incompetant and did not learn what they were taught. Was not that the past goverments mandate as well??

Regardless.....it is obvious you have not left the artificial world of public school yet........many of us ran like [beeep] when that last school bell rung and we ain't looked back yet.

Been nice talking with you.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/hp/frames.htm



I suffer from self-importance to the extreme because I tell you an average parent doesn't have the skill set to teach all subjects across the curriculum in high school? Hey, fact is I don't think I could either and I said this early on. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but that is the reason why at the secondary level different teachers teach the different subjects.

Quote:If I graduated from public school with good grades it only stands to reason that I could do a similiar job with my own children since all these pro's taught me so well ... What you infer is that past public school grads are incompetant and did not learn what they were taught. Was not that the past goverments mandate as well??

Listen, your post above proves my point that even though you graduated with good grades you shouldn't be teaching spelling. The words above that are in bold are misspelled.

That aside, the point that needs to be made is that there is a good chance your daughter when she gets to high school level courses could be smarter than you are. Her schooling could progress further than yours did and you might not have had classes at that level. Now you'd be learning at the same time she would be if you are going to do the teaching.

It boggles my mind to think there are is a parent out there that actually thinks he can equal the knowledge that the combined high schools 75 member faculty has in the classes they teach. Sure you might be an accountant and could teach micro and macro economics but do you have the knowledge to teach Japanese? Could you teach computer programing?

In my opinion this is a key fault of many home schooling parents. Because they are so animatedly against public schooling for whatever reason, they will attempt to teach their own son/daughter and give them a sub-par education because of it. They decide what needs to be taught, regardless of what SHOULD be taught (as determined by the colleges). As I said before, if college is not the goal of your son/daughter than don't worry. If your son/daughter is not actually taught by his/her parents yet is considered home schooled then this might not apply to you. I imagine there are computer programs some parents use or some communal individual who specializes in the subject matter being taught.

If you have determined that public schooling from K all the way to the university level is a giant waste and serves no purpose in society then most of what I am saying should mean little to you. It doesn't take a college degree to be successful in my opinion. If you are a resource to your community and society I would deem that a success.
 
thumbup.gif
Well put!
thumbup.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Timberbeast7

You keep narrowing the criteria. Now it's a "parent with no college education"...before it was just "parents". What next "parents who dropped out, smoked dope, and make less than $25,000/year"? And I'm sorry, but getting a minor in any given area is really a joke. So yes, I think teachers with a "minor" in whatever can be very incompetent at teaching in the area of said "minor". I don't have a "minor" in math, physics, chem, etc....but I know I could teach them better than the average high school teacher with a "minor" in said subject.

Oh boy.

OK, if you think you can, then have at it. A minor is the minimum a junior high teacher needs. High school is probably higher I imagine. I don't teach HS so I am not 100% sure. Obviously to you, taking college classes is not one of the ways one obtains knowledge in a subject area so we're at a brick wall no this one. If you are basing your knowledge base exclusively on what you 'remember' from your schooling you must have a fantastic memory.

Quote:And yes, many schools use software. Just because your school doesn't really means nothing. Rosetta Stone and similar software is being used quite frequently because most high school foreign language teachers are/were inept. How silly (the teachers that is).

Very few medium to large districts in the nation use a piece of software as the main instrument in disseminating instruction. In a reputable district in a foreign language class it is unheard of.

I will call the 3 high schools in my area right now and ask them right now about their Spanish and Japanese classes.

OK called. This is what I was told.

All 3 high schools in my area offer 4 foreign languages, and multiple classes of each language.

Spanish, French, German, and Japanese

Each class is taught 100% by a teacher (no software is used in instruction) and all teachers are certified by the state to teach the foreign language they specialize in. The HS teacher has to pass an oral and written test at a state university proving proficiency in the language.

I think if you called around on your own rather than believe home school website misinformation you'd find the same. Make some calls to regular districts, not some bump in the road school and you'll find the same I imagine.
 
LOL! hyperwrx, you are poking at other's grasp of the english language and yet you produced this gem:

Quote:Software? Where did you get that crap from? How ridiculous. Interesting (Interestingly) enough I know you are wrong because :)) #1- (Is there a #2?) I take my students to the jr high and HS and see a teacher in front of the students teaching and more importantly my wife teaches at the secondary level and she nor her colleges do not use (??) software to teach the students. How silly.
Silly is right.


Quote: Obviously to you, taking college classes is not one of the ways one obtains knowledge in a subject area so we're at a brick wall no this one. If you are basing your knowledge base exclusively on what you 'remember' from your schooling you must have a fantastic memory.


Thats not what I said, but I do know what goes into getting a minor...it isn't much. As for my knowledge base, I use math, science, biology, and my grasp of the english language on a daily basis and my work is scrutinized by very smart people who would like nothing more than for me to screw up...can you (or most teachers) say the same. How exactly do teachers teach, if not from what they remember of their schooling? As for my memory, it is pretty good...thanks.

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said you've probably never done anything but teaching at a public school. In my experience, circle of friends, and network of colleagues...teachers are not known for their sage-like wisdom. Rather they are typically people who couldn't "make it in the real world" (this is mostly refering to high school teachers, not elementary teachers). Thats not saying there aren't some very good teachers (you may be one of them), but for you to make generalizations that teachers are exponentially more qualified to know what a child needs and teach them than parents is absurd. The fact is, homeschooling works VERY well and this is backed-up again and again by research. Can you produce a single shred of FACT to prove otherwise?

Very little of learning is an exercise in memorization, if it were then your assumptions about homeschooling may have some merit. A person is not limited in knowledge and learning by the scope of their teacher's knowledge. In many cases students surpass their teachers level of understanding...how is this explained? If a student is in an atmosphere conducive to learning (not memorizing), they will learn regardless of the teacher/parent. Looking back, good teachers do a lot more "guiding" and a lot less "teaching".
 
Originally Posted By: redeyeddawgOriginally Posted By: mjiorlered,
You make some interesting points. Some of your views are a bit...um...extreme but interesting none the less. I agree with you to an extent, about certain groups staying out of the educational system. I'm not so sure that putting it in the hands of parents is the best measure though. Many problems that we face today in education are the negative result of parents. I pose this question: Would we all be better off if we put education solely in the hands of educators?????? (notice I didn't say unions, gvt. etc.)
Mike

Mike,

I'm happy to respond to you. I am through with Earwrx after his latest "stupid refrain". Not sure what you view as "extreme". Could you provide specifics? I did not say I thought placing education solely in the hands of the parents is the best measure. Since government education is something that is here to stay, I do believe we can make the best of a bad situation by placing control into the hands of local, elected school boards. Under that arrangement, if a board or it's individual members are not doing the job, they can be fired, just as they would in the real world. They would be accountable to the voters, many of whom are interested and involved parents. This is also a good way to serve specific cultural and demographic needs for education within a community. The centralized, bloated, corrupt and inefficient monstrosities we have now is entirely the opposite of that. Obviously, privatization and competition are ultimately the best solutions to the issue, but that will never happen and to the detriment of our nation.

Red,
The extreme comment was in reference to some of your comments in an earlier post in regards to the "intricacies of anal sex, the slavish worship of gvt. through....., the observance of queer days..., the avg. student ending up in prison.. etc." Not a dig at you, but I think it's a little extreme. Few of the things you mentioned have been a part of the schools I have worked at, attended or been associated with. I won't say it doesn't exist, because I know better, but it is not as common as you think. I have a ten month old son, and if the district I lived in involved all of those things you mentioned, it would be safe to assume he would not be going there.
In regards to the school board issue: who polices them? The general public? Then we are back where we started. If there was a way to ensure that they(schl bds) stick to $$ and policy, fine. I have seen way too many times when boards get involved with micro-managing the day to day affairs. For example, I don't think a board of directors member at Ford goes on to the floor and tells a line worker what to do.

The federal gvt, corruption, and unions are a whole thread of their own. Throw the idea of standardized testing into the mix, and it gets real complicated real quick. There are many flaws in the system. Start with the fact that we are guided by a set of standards, well, standards are best served by mastery learning(master this standard, move on to the next),yet we are still required to give grades. And cover all required material for the course.

The real problems are more societal than school. It is real difficult to fail or retain a student. Because, when parents come in complaining, administrators and school boards cave in and change grades. I won't even get into the caving in on discipline issues, but it would make honest, strong valued parents cringe. In many cases, the teachers are tying to do the right thing, but when we are overruled, our hands are tied.
One last point. probably 9 times out of 10, both successes and failures of students can be attributed to home.
Mike
 
Originally Posted By: Timberbeast7.


Quote: Obviously to you, taking college classes is not one of the ways one obtains knowledge in a subject area so we're at a brick wall no this one. If you are basing your knowledge base exclusively on what you 'remember' from your schooling you must have a fantastic memory.


Thats not what I said....

No, but it is what you inferred by saying that obtaining a minor in a state university does not help one obtain knowledge. It most certainly does.

Quote:, but I do know what goes into getting a minor...it isn't much.

You said it, you don't know yet you know it is not much?

As I stated and you fail to take note of. A minor is what a junior high teacher needs at a bare minimum. I believe a high school requires more college in the are of specialization. I will look into it.

Quote:As for my knowledge base, I use math, science, biology, and my grasp of the english language on a daily basis and my work is scrutinized by very smart people who would like nothing more than for me to screw up...can you (or most teachers) say the same.

No, I can not say the same. I am not surrounded by people that want to see me screw up. Doesn't sound like a very enjoyable place to work.


Quote:How exactly do teachers teach, if not from what they remember of their schooling? As for my memory, it is pretty good...thanks.

Teachers write lesson plans to teach from. These lesson plans are a guideline with the important key points that need to be taught to adhere to the state guidelines tied to the curriculum. For example- When I teach the Bill of Rights to my students I go into my filing cabinet and grab a folder that has notes for me plus handouts for the students and any other material pertinent to teaching the unit. Since my curriculum includes all subject areas and I have taught quite a few different grade levels I need to look at my teaching notes to make sure I cover everything they are expect to learn.

I certainly am not just remembering everything and shooting from the hip when teaching.

Quote:I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said you've probably never done anything but teaching at a public school.

I must have missed that comment but the person who made it was wrong. I went to school at the University of Barcelona in Spain for a few semesters and took enough classes to be able teach English at a private school there. I also taught Spanish at the community college and taught 4th, 5th, and 6th grade at a public school. I have never taught at a charter school or a private school here in the United States. I would not object to teaching there but in AZ the teachers that teach at these establishments make less than public school teachers. I don't make much but I don't want a pay cut.

Quote:In my experience, circle of friends, and network of colleagues...teachers are not known for their sage-like wisdom. Rather they are typically people who couldn't "make it in the real world" (this is mostly refering to high school teachers, not elementary teachers). Thats not saying there aren't some very good teachers (you may be one of them), but for you to make generalizations that teachers are exponentially more qualified to know what a child needs and teach them than parents is absurd.

You might be a person with the brains to know what your child needs to learn but do you really think ALL parents are as smart as you? Don't you believe that some students will get royally screwed by their parents? Is this fair to the kids?

Quote:The fact is, homeschooling works VERY well and this is backed-up again and again by research. Can you produce a single shred of FACT to prove otherwise?

I most certainly can provide you with articles and studies showing you that home schooling has its problems. Homeschooling is not the best answer for everyone.

http://www.educationbug.org/a/cons-of-homeschooling.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/203520/_ten_reasons_why_homeschooling_may.html?cat=25

Look at #2 on this article
smile.gif

http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p56.htm

http://schoolroom.us/blog/homeschooling-issues.htm

There are many. You get the picture.

Quote:Very little of learning is an exercise in memorization, if it were then your assumptions about homeschooling may have some merit. A person is not limited in knowledge and learning by the scope of their teacher's knowledge. In many cases students surpass their teachers level of understanding...how is this explained?

I have never heard of this but can promise you this doesn't happen under high school level. Under 10th grade the scope of learning most certainly occurs by what the teacher decides to teach the student. I personally do not see this happening much at higher grades either. You have some study to prove this theory? Let me get this straight.. you think the math student in 11th grade surpasses the teacher in knowledge of the curriculum? Nope, typically doesn't happen.

Quote:If a student is in an atmosphere conducive to learning (not memorizing), they will learn regardless of the teacher/parent. Looking back, good teachers do a lot more "guiding" and a lot less "teaching".

You are now trying to define what teaching is. It is not just memorization for sure. Helping a student to answer their questions they have on a particular subject matter is a form of teaching. Direct instruction where the teacher disseminates 100% of the knowledge is another type of teaching. Teaching a few students and having those students teach their peers is yet another type of teaching. There are a myriad of methods that are used. They are all teaching. One of the highest orders of teaching showing the most masters of subject matter is when a student is able to teach the material to his peers.
 
Quote:One last point. probably 9 times out of 10, both successes and failures of students can be attributed to home.

We read this mantra time and time again in these threads always by the teacher and never by the parent.
 
Quote:Quote:, but I do know what goes into getting a minor...it isn't much.

You said it, you don't know yet you know it is not much?

As I stated and you fail to take note of. A minor is what a junior high teacher needs at a bare minimum. I believe a high school requires more college in the are of specialization. I will look into it.

Huh? I said I do know what goes into getting a minor. And again, maybe where you live more of an emphasis is placed on specialization but that is not true in many areas.

Quote:Quote:As for my knowledge base, I use math, science, biology, and my grasp of the english language on a daily basis and my work is scrutinized by very smart people who would like nothing more than for me to screw up...can you (or most teachers) say the same.

No, I can not say the same. I am not surrounded by people that want to see me screw up. Doesn't sound like a very enjoyable place to work.

Some days it's not. You are intentionally missing the point of what I am saying. Just because I'm not a teacher and don't have a lesson plan to follow daily doesn't mean I haven't retained everything I've learned. Many people in the "real world" are by default specialists in several areas.

Quote:Quote:How exactly do teachers teach, if not from what they remember of their schooling? As for my memory, it is pretty good...thanks.

Teachers write lesson plans to teach from. These lesson plans are a guideline with the important key points that need to be taught to adhere to the state guidelines tied to the curriculum. For example- When I teach the Bill of Rights to my students I go into my filing cabinet and grab a folder that has notes for me plus handouts for the students and any other material pertinent to teaching the unit. Since my curriculum includes all subject areas and I have taught quite a few different grade levels I need to look at my teaching notes to make sure I cover everything they are expect to learn.

I certainly am not just remembering everything and shooting from the hip when teaching.

Sounds like something most parents could do. Read notes, pass out handouts, follow the required cirriculum.

Quote:Quote:I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said you've probably never done anything but teaching at a public school.

I must have missed that comment but the person who made it was wrong. I went to school at the University of Barcelona in Spain for a few semesters and took enough classes to be able teach English at a private school there. I also taught Spanish at the community college and taught 4th, 5th, and 6th grade at a public school. I have never taught at a charter school or a private school here in the United States. I would not object to teaching there but in AZ the teachers that teach at these establishments make less than public school teachers. I don't make much but I don't want a pay cut.

Well the mark was not missed by much, am I correct in saying the only career you've had is teaching?

Quote:Quote:In my experience, circle of friends, and network of colleagues...teachers are not known for their sage-like wisdom. Rather they are typically people who couldn't "make it in the real world" (this is mostly refering to high school teachers, not elementary teachers). Thats not saying there aren't some very good teachers (you may be one of them), but for you to make generalizations that teachers are exponentially more qualified to know what a child needs and teach them than parents is absurd.

You might be a person with the brains to know what your child needs to learn but do you really think ALL parents are as smart as you? Don't you believe that some students will get royally screwed by their parents? Is this fair to the kids?

Do you think ALL teachers are as dedicated and as smart as you appear to be? Isn't it painfully obvious that a multitude of kids are getting royally screwed by the public school system? Is having options not more fair?

Quote:Homeschooling is not the best answer for everyone.

Didn't say it was, but according to you it isn't even a viable option.

Quote:Quote:Very little of learning is an exercise in memorization, if it were then your assumptions about homeschooling may have some merit. A person is not limited in knowledge and learning by the scope of their teacher's knowledge. In many cases students surpass their teachers level of understanding...how is this explained?

I have never heard of this but can promise you this doesn't happen under high school level. Under 10th grade the scope of learning most certainly occurs by what the teacher decides to teach the student. I personally do not see this happening much at higher grades either. You have some study to prove this theory? Let me get this straight.. you think the math student in 11th grade surpasses the teacher in knowledge of the curriculum? Nope, typically doesn't happen.

I know for a fact it happens. Most of my siblings and I were more advanced in a given grade level than our highschool math teacher. Granted, she was a poor teacher, but how then did we all accel in math?
 
The further we get into this the clearer it becomes to me that it's a pointless argument. Can homeschooled kids do better on tests than kids in public schools? Yes. Can they do worse? Yes. Could my school score better if I could choose the students who would take the test? Yes. Homeschooling has advantages and disadvantages. To say one is entirely right and the other wrong is narrow thinking. One huge advantage to homeschooling (and I've said this before) is the students are hand-selected. That could never happen in a public school. If every student in this country were homeschooled, would the majority be better educated. No. For the few kids with dedicated parents who have the time and teaching ability, homeschooling is a better option. For the other 90%+, it won't work. Public education has many problems, but for the vast majority of students it's the better option.
 
Quote:Huh? I said I do know what goes into getting a minor. And again, maybe where you live more of an emphasis is placed on specialization but that is not true in many areas.

My mistake. Thought you said didn't know. For the 4th time I am telling you that HS teachers probably need more than a minor in their specialization.

Quote:Just because I'm not a teacher and don't have a lesson plan to follow daily doesn't mean I haven't retained everything I've learned. Many people in the "real world" are by default specialists in several areas.

Haha, because teaching is not a job in the real world. I am sure you're an incredible specialist in several areas but the fact remains that many parents are not. I am not concerned that YOU don't have the skill set to teach math, I am worried about Cooter, the guy who sells hotdogs on the corner, deciding to pull his kids and teach them 10th grade curriculum.

Quote:Sounds like something most parents could do. Read notes, pass out handouts, follow the required curriculum.

Sounds easy but even you and others can be quoted elsewhere saying teachers can't do their jobs worth a crap. I would LOVE to sit you in my classroom of 34 6th graders and not only watch you try to create an environment where students feel comfortable to take risks when learning but watch you teach the curriculum and to watch you make sure all the students are understanding it. I think the humor wouldn't be watching the kids out of control. The funny part would be you assessing the students and seeing that 40% of them didn't grasp the concept you tried and failed to teach.

Quote:Do you think ALL teachers are as dedicated and as smart as you appear to be? Isn't it painfully obvious that a multitude of kids are getting royally screwed by the public school system? Is having options not more fair?

Do YOU think all home school parents are as incredible as you are? No public school teacher will say public school is working perfectly. As all the teachers have said over and over and over and over - public schools are a reflection on society. If society is mired in the muck, you can expect the public schools will follow suit. All the teachers here tell you this but you refuse to admit it.

You might think that I can find no fault in public schooling but you are wrong. I find fault with it 24-7 but I also find fault with private, charter and home schooling. None of them are perfect but [beeep] trying to convince anyone that their engine to impart knowledge is flawed. Home schoolers can't admit anything is wrong. Private schooling parents swear by their decision and so on and so on.

Quote:know for a fact it happens. Most of my siblings and I were more advanced in a given grade level than our highschool math teacher. Granted, she was a poor teacher, but how then did we all accel in math?

Sure it happens. Does it happen a lot- I seriously doubt it. You even admit your teacher you passed up was a poor teacher.
 
Originally Posted By: Timberbeast7Isn't it painfully obvious that a multitude of kids are getting royally screwed by the public school system?


Unfortunately most of these kids are screwing themselves, and their parents do not care. Teachers, even as you state unqualified teachers can only help the students that want to learn.

Based on your thoughts why even consider college? Most are just a continuation of public education, why not have a "home school university".
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxOriginally Posted By: A DanaOriginally Posted By: Hyperwrx

I also spoke about many parents not having the skill set to teach beyond 6th grade. You opted to not comment on that.

Actually I would have to disagree with you regarding this....not to insult the teachers however. If it is taken into consideration the average competency acquired by the average student, that a fair number of children will never be competent regardless of how skillful the teacher, and another percentage who could but won't because they don't care. The result will be a relatively small number of students who may be handicapped by their parents' skill set. There are ways and means that this missing education can be acquired later in life if is important to the student, regardless.



You explication is ridiculous and ignorant. What you are saying is the average kid can not learn regardless of who teaches him and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Based on the annual standardized tests the United States mandates of all students, millions of kids from 5 years old to 17 years old learn and are competent in their grade level curriculum.

What I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

* Literature
* Writing/composition
* Speech
* Algebra
* Geometry
* Algebra II
* Trigonometry, calculus, and statistics
* Biology
* Chemistry and physics
* Earth/space sciences, advanced biology, advanced chemistry, and physics
* U.S. history
* U.S. government
* Economics
* World history and geography
* Foreign Languages
* The Arts
* Computer Applications

I didn't include auto shop, industrial tech, agriculture, robotics, home economics, band, orchestra, and a ton of other electives that can be taken at high school.

The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally). IF you plan on having your son/daughter attend college (which not all do I understand) then you better bite the bullet and reenroll them back into public school once they hit 11 years old.


i think it funny that you and jeffo had no comment on my post here


http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...rue#Post1586771

yet you poke fun at me.
 
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one more

http://www.umpqua.cc.or.us/component/con...elease-08-132-d

News Release 08-132-D
College’s outstanding students’ ceremony set for 3 p.m., Wednesday, Campus Center

News Release 08-132-D For more information:
Release date: 05/19/09 Bentley Gilbert
For immediate release (541) 440-7747
http://www.umpqua.edu/

Every year Umpqua Community College honors those students who show outstanding academic performance, leadership and career promise.

This year, at 3 p.m., Wednesday, May 20, the College and its faculty will honor 57 students at a ceremony in the cafeteria of the Campus Center at the College.

All UCC departments are invited to honor a student who is selected in consideration of her or his scholastic performance, classroom and college leadership contributions, and career promise.

SCHOLARSHIP RECIPIENTS
Roisin Brown, Oregon Student Scholar
Amanda Elder, Oregon Student Scholar
Hanna Norris, Social Science Scholarship

TRANSFER OPPORTUNITY PROGRAM
Leah Clifford, Transfer Opportunity Program Peer Tutor
Mari Helm, Transfer Opportunity Program

LIBRARY
Samantha Stephens, Library Services

LEARNING SKILLS DEPARTMENT
Darren Dinneen, Bridge to Success Program

JUMPSTART PROGRAM
Corinne Brown, JumpStart

INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS
Kellen Spicer, Men’s Basketball
Kristi Fallin, Women’s Basketball

FINE & PERFORMING ARTS
Jason Smith, Fine Art
Amanda Moore, Music
Kellene Soder, Theatre

HUMANITIES
Diana Wood, Communication Studies
Anantnoor Brar, Foreign Languages
Jody Gordon, Literature
Marcia Rapin, Literature
Barbara Stephens, Public Relations
Les Krieg, Technical Writing
Keenan Lynch, Writing

MATHEMATICS
Ryan Nelson, Calcuus
Jessica Just, College Algebra Sequence
Amber Jones, Math for Elementary Teachers Sequence

SCIENCES
Anantnoor Brar, Biological Sciences
Byeong (Eugene) Yang, Biological Sciences
Thomas Dannenhoffer, Chemistry

SOCIAL SCIENCES
Tabitha Martinez, Human Services
Jordan Pringle, Psychology
Melissa Osborne, Sociology
Dorothy Payson, United States Government
Gregory Garcia, United States History
Isaac Hallgrimson, World History

AUTOMOTIVE TECHNOLOGY
Eli Decker, Second Year Automotive
Gene Pick, Second Year Automotive – Toyota

BUSINESS
Matt Cordell, Accounting Technology
Kurt Krenzer, Accounting Technology
Rosa Mohlsick, Business Technology Entry Management AAS

COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY
Aaron Brooks, Computer Information Systems
Michael Henry, Digital Systems Technology

ENGINEERING
Kristi Woods, First Year Civil Engineering Technology
Keith Klooster, Second Year Civil Engineering Technology
Chavis Sabin, First Year Engineering Transfer
Michael Caddock, Second Year Engineering Transfer

HEALTH OCCUPATIONS
Alicia Cronquist, Dental Assistant
Jessica Brown, Dental Assisting - Lecture & Clinic
Crystal Barber, Dental Hygiene
Nichole Hopkins, Dental Hygiene
Megan Matijkowicz, Dental Assisting - Lecture & Terminology
Kimberly Bone, First Year Registered Nursing
Katherin Carlyle, First Year Registered Nursing
Jennifer Herbison, Second Year Registered Nursing
Adam Woldt, Second Year Registered Nursing

PUBLIC SAFETY
Gregory Kaeser, Criminal Justice

WELDING
Bryan Best, Welding
Eli Fisher, Welding
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxWhat I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

once again, this just proves that you aren't doing what the taxpayers are paying you to do.
 
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