Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?

Quote:I don't do the statistic game. I just resort to common sense.

If you don't "do the statistic game" then you have no clue as to whether or not your "common sense" is accurate or not.



Quote:Quote:Fact's are fact's regardless of where your getting it from.

WRONG.

If facts are facts regardless of where you get them from then according to this internet article guns should be outlawed because guns kill people, people don't.

http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.8.31.82856.1017.html



That "internet article" is a post written on a web forum, and the site is "archive only" with no links to supposed "studies".

I will repeat this again but don't expect you to read or be able to understand it. I have made these statements in 3 or 4 different threads. You apparently need them all in 1 central location.

You obviously have zero understanding of even basic statistical analysis. Statistical analysis is the branch of mathematics that gathers and studies data in order to determine FACT.

A scientifically rigorous peer reviewed statistical analysis IS FACT.

If your "common sense" opinion based on your personal experience in a small microcosm of the educational universe disagrees with the findings of vigorous peer reviewed analyses, often performed by professors and their post docs using data gathered over many years, then you might want to reconsider your "opinion" instead of disparaging and insulting those who present the scientifically validated facts determined by researchers with vastly more knowledge, education, and experience than you.



Quote:Uh.. when you pull a research study/article in favor of home schooling from a website made for the Home School Legal Defense Association the validity of the research would automatically be in question.

Only if the study was NOT a peer reviewed study...that one is.



Quote:The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally).



And of course you know better than Brian D. Ray, an internationally known scholar, a professor of science and education at the undergraduate and graduate levels, who earned his PhD in science education from Oregon State University, his MS in zoology from Ohio University, and his BS in biology from the University of Puget Sound. He has been has been a classroom teacher in both public and private schools, and has taught homeschool students. Dr. Ray conducts and publishes research and provides expert testimony to legislatures and courts.

But then you don't "do the statistics game" do you?


........Education Level of Homeschool Parents

Fathers 1.4% ...Did not finish highschool ..5% Mothers
.........8.4% .....Graduated highschool .... 7.5%
........15.4% ........some college ........ 18.7%
.........8.6% .....Associates degree ...... 10.8%
.........37.6% .....Bachelor degree ....... 48.4%
.........20% .......Masters degree ........ 11.6%
..........8.7% ........Doctorate ............ 2.5%


Correlation Between Homeschool Student Scores and Parental Education, National Percentile (Core). (Public school is 50th percentile by definition)

Neither has a degree: 83rd percentile

One parent has a degree: 86th percentile

Both parents have degrees: 90th percentile




Homeschool Academic Achievement K -12 (public school is 50th percentile by definition)

Total Reading: 89th percentile

Total Math: 84th percentile

Total Language: 84th percentile

Science: 86th percentile

Social Studies: 84th percentile

Core: 88th percentile

Core is a combination of reading language and math



You might also go to the admissions page of some of those schlock colleges and universities, you know Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, all of which recruit homeschooled students.
 
Dang those pesky facts
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Summary of Major Findings in This Study

Demographics of the Families and Students

The median income for home-educating families ($75,000 to $79,999) was similar to all married-couple families nationwide with one or more related children under age 18 (median income $74,049 in 2006 dollars; or roughly 78,490 in 2008 dollars).


Homeschool parents have more formal education than parents in the general population; 66.3% of the fathers and 62.5% of the mothers had a college degree (i.e., bachelor’s degree) or a higher educational attainment. In 2007, 29.5% of all adult males nationwide ages 25 and over had finished college and 28.0% of females had done so.


These homeschool families are notably larger – 68.1% have three or more children – than families nationwide.


The percent of homeschool students in this study who are White/not-Hispanic (91.7%) is disproportionately high compared to public school students nationwide.


Almost all homeschool students (97.9%) are in married couple families. Most home school mothers (81%) do not participate in the labor force; almost all home school fathers (97.6%) do work for pay.


The median amount of money spent annually on educational materials is about $400 to $599 per home-educated student.
Academic Achievement of Home-Educated Students in Grades K-12
Homeschool student achievement test scores are exceptionally high. The mean scores for every subtest (which are at least the 80th percentile) are well above those of public school students.


There are no statistically significant differences in achievement by whether the student has been home educated all his or her academic life, whether the student is enrolled in a full-service curriculum, whether the parents knew their student’s test scores before participating in the study, and the degree of state regulation of homeschooling (in three different analyses on the subject).


There are statistically significant differences in achievement among homeschool students when classified by gender, amount of money spent on education, family income, whether either parent had ever been a certified teacher (i.e., students of non-certified parents did better), number of children living at home, degree of structure in the homeschooling, amount of time student spends in structured learning, and age at which formal instruction of the student began. However, of these variables, only parent education level explained a noticeable or practically significant amount of variance, 2.5%, in student scores; the other variables explained one-half of 1% or less of the variance.
 
Originally Posted By: sweatybettyOriginally Posted By: HyperwrxWhat I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt is that there is less than 1% of all adults that have the knowledge to competently teach the following high school level classes:

once again, this just proves that you aren't doing what the taxpayers are paying you to do.

hyper, i noticed that you haven't responded to this.
if only 1% of all adults are competent to teach, then the public school system is a horrible failure.
shouldn't any student who passes a class be able to teach that same class up to the level he/she was taught? or do they need that super duper ninja nea teaching degree?
btw, when i say "you" i mean teachers in general, not you personally.
 
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Originally Posted By: skeet987I have been doing some research across the net about home schooling Vs public schooling. I've just been looking at research/stats/facts. From what I can see it's showing that home schooled kids are scoring higher in academic test then kid's in public school. In one study they say- "The findings of this study do not support the idea that parents need to be trained and certified teachers to assure successful academic achievement of their children." and "Further, Dr. Ray found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education."
Here is the Research if anyone want's to read it.


i posted the same thing and got the same response from hyper. i did ask him to point to a site saying homeschoolers were less successful but he didn't respond. im still waiting
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I have provided the references and links to substantiate all of these previously in this thread or in other recent threads in this debate.

These are NOT my opinions, they are the verifiable findings of fact through research by people with far more education and experience than anyone here.

FACT: Government schools in the U.S. have become more centrally controlled, with more power accruing to the federal government. This is a legal necessity since the SCOTUS Grove city College decision.

FACT: Educational standards and achievement levels have fallen nationally in the government school system since the '60s.

FACT: The quality of teachers has diminished in the government school system since the '60s, measured as academic achievement and as classroom performance, with the largest single cause being the unionized pay scale (there are others).

FACT: Of high school graduates of the government school system enrolled as freshmen in a 4 year college, 25% take remedial math, and 21% take remedial reading. (Community and junior colleges are much worse).

FACT: The U.S. government school system spends more per child on education in real and absolute terms than just about any other developed country. (Depending on the metric, either 1st or 3rd).

FACT The U.S government school system is near the bottom of the list of developed countries when academic scores are measured. It's getting worse compared to other developed nations AND compared to itself in previous year's PISA studies.

FACT The U.S. government school system spends a higher percentage of total education funding on teacher salaries than most developed nations.

FACT: The decline in national standards, achievement, and teacher quality has been occurred at the same time as a massive increase in educational funding.

FACT Parents DO NOT have any say in what the government schools will teach. They can choose not to send their children to government schools (if they can afford it), but they have no legal authority over what the government schools will teach their children.

FACT: Private schools nationally produce much higher academic achievement than do government schools at a much lower cost.

FACT: Private schools achieve higher academic achievement nationally while teaching all demographic groups, rich to poor, learning disabled, behaviour problems, etc. They manage this (in general) by specialization. They don't try to throw all students into a "one size fits all" pot.

FACT: Private school teachers are often NOT required to have a teaching certificate and in some cases not even required to have a college degree if they have "real world" experience that is appropriate. Private schools achieve higher academic standards in spite (or because) of this.


I need to stop here for now, but there's lots more (I haven't even started on the unions).
 
sweatybetty - I have a tough time responding to everything in these threads, sorry. Lots of people firing questions and comments to me. Too many comments, and too little time. I also just gloss over a lot of this stuff unless I find it interesting.

There has been tons of points I have made that the people I direct them to do not respond. I seldom worry about it. Lots going on in these threads. Not everything can be addressed and many times its not because there is not a good rebuttal.

Regarding the 1% comment. I stand behind it and I dont think you understand it or you'd agree.

Show me an adult (non-educator) who can teach all the high school curriculum in all areas. Not even HS teachers could do this because they specialize in generally just 1 area of study. My point was a home school parent cant replicate the knowledge an entire faculty has.

nmleon- At this point I really just gloss over what you type since its always just the same thing over and over. Sorry.

BTW- If I start a thread and ask for personal opinions and you interject with a hoard or articles and research studies for whatever reason then I think I can ask that you refrain and post what was asked for. I know you are the moderator and can do whatever you please but there is proper forum etiquette and everyone expects it to be followed, even by you.
 
Quote:nmleon- At this point I really just gloss over what you type since its always just the same thing over and over. Sorry.

And since you are obviously not interested in actual FACTS.
 
FACT Schools are a microcosm of society. Our public schools reflect trends and changes that are occurring in our collective culture. If our schools are failing then what does this say about our culture?

FACT Local newspapers accept advertising dollars from private schools, leading to a lack of journalistic integrity in school reporting.

FACT Students from private schools are more likely to drop out of university than their government-school counterparts.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/21/1029114133194.html

FACT Many public school problems stem from lack of parental support- one out of every four public school teachers cited lack of parent involvement as a serious problem in their schools. This problem was also described as "serious" by 4.3 percent of private school teachers. Among both public and private school teachers, this problem topped the list in the percentage of teachers who rated it as a serious problem in their schools. Secondary teachers were more likely than elementary teachers to report lack of parent involvement as a serious problem in their schools.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonQuote:nmleon- At this point I really just gloss over what you type since its always just the same thing over and over. Sorry.

And since you are obviously not interested in actual FACTS.






No, facts are fine. The manner in which you present them would put a kid with ADHD to sleep in record time. In the thread I asked for personal opinion from personal experience- THAT'S what interests me. THAT'S where interesting conversation and dialogue occur.

The manner in which you enjoy discussing these topics regurgitating statistics. Not much of a discussion in my opinion.
 
FACT Schools are a microcosm of society. Our public schools reflect trends and changes that are occurring in our collective culture. If our schools are failing then what does this say about our culture?

FACT: Society is made up of people. People who were largely "educated" in the government school system. Go back and look at the very first post in the thread, then come back and tell me how much society has influenced the government school system or how much the government school system is affecting society




FACT Local newspapers accept advertising dollars from private schools, leading to a lack of journalistic integrity in school reporting.

FACT: Once again you prove your total ignorance of even the most basic forms of statistical analysis. I have cited ONE newspaper article among the plethora of citations. It dealt with sex ed curriculum in AZ, NOT private schools.



FACT Students from private schools are more likely to drop out of university than their government-school counterparts.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/21/1029114133194.html

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Oh that's just too rich Scott (but typical). What happened? Couldn't find an opinion piece by a CA hippie chick? Your citation #1 says absolutely nothing about private school students dropping out, #2 isn't even based on Data analysis, it's just an opinion #3 IT'S ABOUT AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS!!!
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FACT Many public school problems stem from lack of parental support- one out of every four public school teachers cited lack of parent involvement as a serious problem in their schools. This problem was also described as "serious" by 4.3 percent of private school teachers. Among both public and private school teachers, this problem topped the list in the percentage of teachers who rated it as a serious problem in their schools. Secondary teachers were more likely than elementary teachers to report lack of parent involvement as a serious problem in their schools.

Hmmm, looks like another advantage for private schooling.

I'm certainly not surprised at the number of public school teachers who report lack of parental involvement as a problem though. With the BS they are forced to put up with in the curriculum and the lack of authority they have over their children's education, I imagine many parents stay away in disgust.

We had this discussion in a previous thread and I posted data showing that the growth of big government and union influence on the government school system pretty much correlated to the decline in the membership of the PTA.

Then in addition there's the insulting arrogance of some government school teachers. As I stated before, YOU would never see me in your classroom just because of your attitude.
 
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Quote:The manner in which you enjoy discussing these topics regurgitating statistics. Not much of a discussion in my opinion.

And the arrogant and insulting manner in which you respond to people who present facts makes it no discussion at all.

I mean really Scott. You want to have a "discussion" about the state of government schooling, how it got to the state it's in, what if anything can be done about it, AND YOU DON'T WANT TO EXAMINE STATISTICAL FACTS???

What do you figure would be an efficacious way to get to the bottom of the subject? Flip a coin?

Though it's beyond me how a supposedly educated man can openly advocate against knowledge, thanks for your opinion and advice (I guess).

Having heard just the opposite from most of the folks here, I'll certainly not follow your advise or pay much attention to your opinions though (other than to keep shooting them down).
 
Quote:Your citation #1 says absolutely nothing about private school students dropping out

You're wrong. Did you even read it?

I am quoting from it now.

"Academically, students can struggle with the transition from school to university. Popular wisdom has long held that students from private schools are more likely to drop out of university than their government-school counterparts."

Do you think the practices of home schooling differ so greatly from AU to in the US that the facts cited in the article hold no water?

Give me a break.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonQuote:The manner in which you enjoy discussing these topics regurgitating statistics. Not much of a discussion in my opinion.

And the arrogant and insulting manner in which you respond to people who present facts makes it no discussion at all.

I mean really Scott. You want to have a "discussion" about the state of government schooling, how it got to the state it's in, what if anything can be done about it, AND YOU DON'T WANT TO EXAMINE STATISTICAL FACTS???

What do you figure would be an efficacious way to get to the bottom of the subject? Flip a coin?

Though it's beyond me how a supposedly educated man can openly advocate against knowledge, thanks for your opinion and advice (I guess).

Having heard just the opposite from most of the folks here, I'll certainly not follow your advise or pay much attention to your opinions though (other than to keep shooting them down).




Calling me names would be getting a bit personal so you can expect to get some of it back so don't warn me not to do it unless you adhere to the same rules.

You calling me arrogant is the pot calling the kettle black. You telling valued members of this board that they need to 'read for comprehension' and telling others you 'owned them' at various times in discussions in these threads and bragging in the back room that you can best anyone here at PredatorMasters.com is not only arrogant but insulting and patronizing. When one of your peers in the back room calls me and relates how you brag and boast of your 'debate conquests' it shows your character. I would ID it as problems with self-esteem myself but only you would know.

Quote:
What do you figure would be an efficacious way to get to the bottom of the subject? Flip a coin?

No, I feel discussion is good and have tried repeatedly to initiate discussion of educational matters amongst the members here in this area of the forum. I have started threads to discuss personal experiences and inciting opinion from people on the these subjects. You are opposed to these open discussions. I think this is because it enables people to think for themselves and propagate ideas related to their opinions and the culmination of ideas in the thread. Sometimes these ideas are not the agenda you promote here. So how do you quell the discussion of ideas? You slam a bunch of long winded statistics and articles Oftentimes outdated and biased) related to the subject. Then pronounce the conversation ended because you have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt what is right and what is wrong. That's one way of helping people formulate ideas and opinions but not the best way in my opinion. Yes your facts are important but personal experiences is also important. Read these threads and you will ALWAYS see them scattered with personal experience from everyone- this is the primary way people construct opinion- their personal experience. Yeah we know, this doesn't jive with your vast knowledge od statistical analysis but who cares? Apparently not all the members who relate personal experiences with regards to education.

Quote:
Though it's beyond me how a supposedly educated man can openly advocate against knowledge, thanks for your opinion and advice (I guess).

Supposedly educated? LOL. Your patronizing insults at this point fall on deaf ears due to me becoming desensitized to them because of their frequency. Try insulting me only once a week and it would make more of an impact.

Quote:
Having heard just the opposite from most of the folks here, I'll certainly not follow your advise or pay much attention to your opinions though (other than to keep shooting them down).

My PM box is constantly filled as with m email from people from other sites telling me to don't let your methods quell my ability to share the knowledge I have of this subject. Your methods of oppression in this subsection of the forum, where you personally are given the liberty to insult, drag through the mud, and ridicule members and their professions are detrimental to this site in my opinion.

If you don't like my opinions and how I disregard your lengthy epistles then take some advice- don't read my posts at all. Don't read them or post regarding them. If you didn't weigh in with a 1000 word essay with stats nobody reads then the discussion and exchange of ideas would take a more healthy path I'm sure.
 
Quote:
I'm certainly not surprised at the number of public school teachers who report lack of parental involvement as a problem though. With the BS they are forced to put up with in the curriculum and the lack of authority they have over their children's education, I imagine many parents stay away in disgust.

Hardly. This is where you falter in these discussions and rely on insults and ridicule. When the conversation falls back on whats really happening in the classroom and why parents are doing what they do and why students are why they are- your articles and research come up short.

I can tell you honestly, the parents don't show up because they don't care. Plain and simple. Parents will say they care but if it requires effort then they wont come down, make a phone call, or help Johnny do his homework.

That's not caring.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonI have provided the references and links to substantiate all of these previously in this thread or in other recent threads in this debate.

These are NOT my opinions, they are the verifiable findings of fact through research by people with far more education and experience than anyone here.

FACT: Government schools in the U.S. have become more centrally controlled, with more power accruing to the federal government. This is a legal necessity since the SCOTUS Grove city College decision.

FACT: Educational standards and achievement levels have fallen nationally in the government school system since the '60s.

FACT: The quality of teachers has diminished in the government school system since the '60s, measured as academic achievement and as classroom performance, with the largest single cause being the unionized pay scale (there are others).

FACT: Of high school graduates of the government school system enrolled as freshmen in a 4 year college, 25% take remedial math, and 21% take remedial reading. (Community and junior colleges are much worse).

FACT: The U.S. government school system spends more per child on education in real and absolute terms than just about any other developed country. (Depending on the metric, either 1st or 3rd).

FACT The U.S government school system is near the bottom of the list of developed countries when academic scores are measured. It's getting worse compared to other developed nations AND compared to itself in previous year's PISA studies.

FACT The U.S. government school system spends a higher percentage of total education funding on teacher salaries than most developed nations.

FACT: The decline in national standards, achievement, and teacher quality has been occurred at the same time as a massive increase in educational funding.

FACT Parents DO NOT have any say in what the government schools will teach. They can choose not to send their children to government schools (if they can afford it), but they have no legal authority over what the government schools will teach their children.

FACT: Private schools nationally produce much higher academic achievement than do government schools at a much lower cost.

FACT: Private schools achieve higher academic achievement nationally while teaching all demographic groups, rich to poor, learning disabled, behaviour problems, etc. They manage this (in general) by specialization. They don't try to throw all students into a "one size fits all" pot.

FACT: Private school teachers are often NOT required to have a teaching certificate and in some cases not even required to have a college degree if they have "real world" experience that is appropriate. Private schools achieve higher academic standards in spite (or because) of this.


I need to stop here for now, but there's lots more (I haven't even started on the unions).

mleon, You certainly do a good job of finding research to back your opinion, but let me add a little to some of these facts.
Fact 1: Fine
Fact 2: Deceiving if not false. Compare what students of say 20 years ago were learning in class compared to now.(the standards for each grade level have significantly increased) Also, how can achievement be compared? Standardized testing is no where near the same as it was then. For the last time, we now test ALL students.
Fact 3: Not too sure about this one, more and more universities and states are requiring higher GPA's to enter the teaching program, and to graduate with a cert. Not so in the past.
Fact 4: OK
Fact 5: Last time on this one too, we educate (or attempt to) everyone. Other countries (even some developed ones don't) Of course we're going to spend more when you incorporate special needs into the equation.
Fact 6: refer to fact 5 (we do not tract) apples to oranges
Fact 7: How many rich teachers do you know? Just kidding, but I would like to also see the comparison of salaries with other professions from these countries.
Fact 8: too many people trying to "fix" something they know nothing about, and poor spending. Stupid "programs" cost money.(pure opinion)
Fact 9: It's called a representative democracy (school board)Things would get really screwed up if the parents all had their say.

Facts 10, 11 and 12: Last time on this one too. I think anyone with the least bit of common sense can figure this out. Private schools can choose their students, and get rid of students. Not to mention the class of students and parents that private schools get both socioeconomically and in values.

The author of your study is undoubtedly well educated, (much more than myself) But how much time has he put in on the ground level (classroom)? Funny thing about some of those big timers at the university is sometimes they're trying to make a name for themselves too. Used to be called publish or perish. Funny thing about studies and statistics is that if you look hard enough, you can make them say anything you want them to. All that I ask is to please look through to at least some of the reality behind the stats. Wow I wish I could type faster!

Mike
 
Mike,

#2 Look at the PISA studies (all of them) closely. They provide access to the raw data and provide the software to formulate your own comparisons.

In the PISA international studies, testing is indeed "the same as it was then". The data show (in decades long data collection) that the U.S. student is falling behind other countries and that the test scores for succeeding years of U.S. students are falling. In other words U.S. public school academic scores are falling.

#3 Look at the studies referenced earlier. It's not only true that overall academic quality of teachers has dropped, it's of serious enough significance that there have been a number of studies initiated to determine the causes.

#5 Again, look at the actual PISA data before you make unsupported statements.

#6 As above

#7 Again look at the PISA studies for a start, and I believe I referenced a couple of others earlier as well.

#8 ???

#9 If it were local school boards it might be more palatable. Instead it's more and more the state and federal government.

#10, 11, & 12 Yes private schools CAN choose their students. That's the point. They specialize. There are private schools that cater to autistic and other learning disabled, private schools that cater to behaviour problem kids, private schools that cater to brainiacs, etc.

They specialize because it's a MUCH more efficient way to teach. Government schools aren't allowed the same freedom (for the most part) because of the legal restrictions imposed by the fact that they ARE government schools.

That being the case, why would you support a system that by law is required to be a screwed up system?

By the way, private schools schools include students from ALL socioeconomic strata.


Professor Ray HAS taught "at the ground level", though that is irrelevant in a peer reviewed analysis.

The author of an analysis could be 100% biased for a particular position and it doesn't really matter. The peer review process will determine whether or not the findings were developed using rigorous scientific methods and are correct.

Got to run, I'm on mission again.
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxQuote:
I'm certainly not surprised at the number of public school teachers who report lack of parental involvement as a problem though. With the BS they are forced to put up with in the curriculum and the lack of authority they have over their children's education, I imagine many parents stay away in disgust.

Hardly. This is where you falter in these discussions and rely on insults and ridicule. When the conversation falls back on whats really happening in the classroom and why parents are doing what they do and why students are why they are- your articles and research come up short.

I can tell you honestly, the parents don't show up because they don't care. Plain and simple. Parents will say they care but if it requires effort then they wont come down, make a phone call, or help Johnny do his homework.

That's not caring.

I would say most home taught kids have parents who help them with their school work. Kinda is the only option.

You really have painted yourself in a corner....it would be wise to make some concessions rather than hold fast to your bullish sentiment.

Prisons are not full of home schooled kids and neither is skid row....east LA is not a stronghold of home schooled sentiment or practice.


A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad.
Theodore Roosevelt

Schools cannot meld character with knowledge to create responsible adults....... if knowledge is power and power corrupts how can we as responsible adults produce knowledgeable children without a moral base?

Moral relativism is not a moral base....it is the inverse.

And this is the crux of the issue....a strong moral base will usually make up for a deficient education however the inverse is not true.
 
mleon, This is getting tired. Point is, they may be facts, but there is more to the story that is not part of the study. Common sense has to dictate at some point.
By the way, private schools may include some students from different socioeconomic groups, but to think it is even close to the same ratio as the public schools, and they teach and test the same ratio of special needs is ludicrous.

Please take your own advice and actually read my posts, I don't support the system as a whole. I have said and I will say it again The system is flawed on many levels. Parts of the system are good however. It is difficult to paint a detailed picture with a brush as broad as yours.
Mike
 
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I think you misunderstand the universe of private education Mike. I'm not saying that private schools have the same ratio of students from different socioeconomic strata. Quite the contrary, "diversity" is a (largely) government school concept made "legally mandatory" by the various federal laws, starting with the Civil Rights Act of '64.

Private schools are under no such restraints. They can (and do) have schools that are for ONLY underprivileged, ONLY for learning disabled, ONLY for behavioral problem children, Only for whiz kids, etc. Further, private schools are generally specific to a neighborhood or area. They DON'T (and aren't required to) bus middle class suburban students 2 hours to a ghetto school to achieve some sort of integration.

Government schools (and government school teachers) work under enormous handicaps as compared to private schools, but virtually all of those hanicaps are BECAUSE THEY ARE GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS.

Common sense does NOT have to dictate at some point when data are available. DATA should dictate what "common sense" should be.

We would not be human if we did not have biases. The question is whether our biases are grounded in reality.

Analysis are often done by biased researchers. Their research may then support their bias or not. The honest researcher will report the data he finds and adjust his bias accordingly. One of the reasons for peer review is to make sure that researchers ARE honest.

Here's a real world example that most of here are probably at least a little familiar with.

Before John Lott did the original analysis that later led to his first book (More Guns Less Crime?) he was biased FOR gun control. "Common sense" told him that freely issuing CCWs would cause more crime (his words). Of course we all know that his analysis reached an opposite conclusion, and professor Lott was honest enough and educated well enough in the efficacy of data analysis that he changed his bias based on factual data.
 
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