jumprightinit
New member
Hang in there nm leon, you are a cut above the fold. You have quite a resume of MOS's, just wondering if you ever jumped, sort of a nostalgia trip for me.
Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?
- Thread starter sweatybetty
- Start date
NM Leon
New member
I got right up to it with a friend of mine who was an expert (1000+ jumps). He was practicing with others for a demonstration while I spent the morning learning to pack, roll, etc.
He had a double malfunction, did all the stuff I had just been learning, and (really) badly sprained his ankle on landing (is it still a "landing" if you CAN'T walk away from it?).
After that I didn't figure it was a real auspicious day for me to be making my first, and I've managed to resist the urge ever since.
I did hang glide avidly for a while though (with the same friend, lol), and some folks thinks that's almost as nuts.
He had a double malfunction, did all the stuff I had just been learning, and (really) badly sprained his ankle on landing (is it still a "landing" if you CAN'T walk away from it?).
After that I didn't figure it was a real auspicious day for me to be making my first, and I've managed to resist the urge ever since.
I did hang glide avidly for a while though (with the same friend, lol), and some folks thinks that's almost as nuts.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:Looks like we need to pay our teachers more to retain the best of the best.
That has actually been the justification (in part) for the huge increases in government school funding over the last few decades.
Unfortunately in a union based (seniority) pay system it doesn't work. More money doesn't mean higher pay for better teachers, it means higher pay for all teachers, good and bad, based on seniority instead of talent and skill.
That's one of the reasons many advocate changing to a merit pay system.
That has actually been the justification (in part) for the huge increases in government school funding over the last few decades.
Unfortunately in a union based (seniority) pay system it doesn't work. More money doesn't mean higher pay for better teachers, it means higher pay for all teachers, good and bad, based on seniority instead of talent and skill.
That's one of the reasons many advocate changing to a merit pay system.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:The studies you cite may in some way be fact, but it is also fact that higher you go in school the less training in education the instructors have.
That's probably true Mike, certainly at the post secondary level. It also makes rational sense, even accepting the premise that "teaching" is a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks.
Past a certain level, the student is "teaching" himself. The instructor/teacher is just presenting information in an orderly and (hopefully) interesting way that will challenge the student's intellect.
Quote:Just sayin, the term skills is very relative.
Absolutely true, which is exactly why I said "You work in a job (elementary school teacher) that requires very few specialized skills or training (relative to other professions)..."
That's probably true Mike, certainly at the post secondary level. It also makes rational sense, even accepting the premise that "teaching" is a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks.
Past a certain level, the student is "teaching" himself. The instructor/teacher is just presenting information in an orderly and (hopefully) interesting way that will challenge the student's intellect.
Quote:Just sayin, the term skills is very relative.
Absolutely true, which is exactly why I said "You work in a job (elementary school teacher) that requires very few specialized skills or training (relative to other professions)..."
mleon,
As far as teaching being a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks, you couldn't be further from the truth. Teaching is all about the application my friend. Dealing with 20-30 different personalities and learning styles all at once and making sure it's getting through, well sir that's nothing that can be learned in a textbook. I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it. One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook. Different skills! I understand that your opinion of teachers and the teaching profession is pretty set, and that is fine. Most of us are used to that, being a tax based industry, it is rare to garner a lot of support from the public especially in tougher economic times. As a homeowner and a taxpayer I understand where your coming from, yet I try not to downplay other professions. I've worked a bunch of different jobs over the years, at times for people with phd's however the smartest of all were the two different farmers.
Mike
As far as teaching being a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks, you couldn't be further from the truth. Teaching is all about the application my friend. Dealing with 20-30 different personalities and learning styles all at once and making sure it's getting through, well sir that's nothing that can be learned in a textbook. I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it. One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook. Different skills! I understand that your opinion of teachers and the teaching profession is pretty set, and that is fine. Most of us are used to that, being a tax based industry, it is rare to garner a lot of support from the public especially in tougher economic times. As a homeowner and a taxpayer I understand where your coming from, yet I try not to downplay other professions. I've worked a bunch of different jobs over the years, at times for people with phd's however the smartest of all were the two different farmers.
Mike
ExpertMarksman
New member
google parachute landing fall
It really is simple to learn but sometimes hard to do. The French @ Dien Bien Phu jumped hundreds into that mountain camp who had never seen a parachute and I understand they had no more drop zone casualties/injuries than fully trained Airborne troops!
Good hunting!
Hyperwrx
New member
nmleon- I have said this before and I will repeat it over and over. That you discount the opinion and points made by SCORES of people at all levels of the teaching profession shows that you are not able to process important and pertinent information regarding the topic.
I think that your pride stands in the way of the facts. You REFUSE to admit that the dozen or so teachers/administrators that have posted in these threads have made valid points concerning the topics presented. I can only imagine this is a flaw in character that must permeate everything in your life.
You can sit here and argue your points with extremely long posts citing articles you find on the internet and your personal beliefs until you are blue in the face. You are an outsider looking INTO the window of education and are not in the classroom interacting with students. Your opinion will only hold ground with the few others within this forum who are like-minded, nowhere else and the members of this forum who are interacting with students see your opinions are way off base.
They are shaping America as a blistering pace due to their choice to be the educators of today's youth. The majority are doing the best they can with what they are given. You are stuck in this sub-forum spreading your bile to a handful of people. As I have said before- My consolation to all these waste of time arguments is the fact that your platform to spew your hatred is in a 10x10 foot room that only a few decided to walk through the door of.
It looks to be a fantastic day in my public school classroom today. In Math the student swill learn about the transformation of plane figures, in literature they are reading Theodore Taylor's The Cay and discussing it's reflection of racism in today's society, in writing we are editing and finishing up their Famous American Reports, and in science are learning about the different types of bridges and how their particular foundations and construction lend to their structural integrity or lack of.
Some of us are willing to go beyond typing on an internet forum in trying to better society. Have a great day.
I think that your pride stands in the way of the facts. You REFUSE to admit that the dozen or so teachers/administrators that have posted in these threads have made valid points concerning the topics presented. I can only imagine this is a flaw in character that must permeate everything in your life.
You can sit here and argue your points with extremely long posts citing articles you find on the internet and your personal beliefs until you are blue in the face. You are an outsider looking INTO the window of education and are not in the classroom interacting with students. Your opinion will only hold ground with the few others within this forum who are like-minded, nowhere else and the members of this forum who are interacting with students see your opinions are way off base.
They are shaping America as a blistering pace due to their choice to be the educators of today's youth. The majority are doing the best they can with what they are given. You are stuck in this sub-forum spreading your bile to a handful of people. As I have said before- My consolation to all these waste of time arguments is the fact that your platform to spew your hatred is in a 10x10 foot room that only a few decided to walk through the door of.
It looks to be a fantastic day in my public school classroom today. In Math the student swill learn about the transformation of plane figures, in literature they are reading Theodore Taylor's The Cay and discussing it's reflection of racism in today's society, in writing we are editing and finishing up their Famous American Reports, and in science are learning about the different types of bridges and how their particular foundations and construction lend to their structural integrity or lack of.
Some of us are willing to go beyond typing on an internet forum in trying to better society. Have a great day.
ExpertMarksman
New member
After a diatribe like that one it seems obviously insincere to end with the salutation/pleasantry.
Your targets posts are within the TOS and apparently real opinions developed in the training schools and the vital 'School of Hark Knocks!"
While I don't think anyone owes anyone an apology, it seems like to me you will be unlikely to change another persons mind by that approach.
What would you say to a "Beer Summit" since I need a cover story to go to Phoenix anyway?
My wife is out teaching grade school kids today and I think on this issue she would be on the fence. One of her classes was so rowdy they laughingly suggested she might want to pray before work!
Good hunting!
nmleon said "For example the press has reported in many articles that the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics) says there is an 85% high school graduation rate in the U.S., while most other studies put it at 75% or less. Hmmm studies disagreeing with each other."
and
"There are of course a couple of glaring problems with that."
then said
"No sir, "real life experiences" do NOT "trump studies and research", and it is in fact absurd for you to even suggest it."
Wait a minute, isn't that a contradiction? We should believe studies that disagree with each other and have glaring problems? Are you basing your entire premise on real life experiences or studies and research?
and
"There are of course a couple of glaring problems with that."
then said
"No sir, "real life experiences" do NOT "trump studies and research", and it is in fact absurd for you to even suggest it."
Wait a minute, isn't that a contradiction? We should believe studies that disagree with each other and have glaring problems? Are you basing your entire premise on real life experiences or studies and research?
jumprightinit
New member
Originally Posted By: nmleonI got right up to it with a friend of mine who was an expert (1000+ jumps). He was practicing with others for a demonstration while I spent the morning learning to pack, roll, etc.
He had a double malfunction, did all the stuff I had just been learning, and (really) badly sprained his ankle on landing (is it still a "landing" if you CAN'T walk away from it?).After that I didn't figure it was a real auspicious day for me to be making my first, and I've managed to resist the urge ever since.
I did hang glide avidly for a while though (with the same friend, lol), and some folks thinks that's almost as nuts.
Witticism: "If at first you don't succeed
skydiving is not for you."
He had a double malfunction, did all the stuff I had just been learning, and (really) badly sprained his ankle on landing (is it still a "landing" if you CAN'T walk away from it?).After that I didn't figure it was a real auspicious day for me to be making my first, and I've managed to resist the urge ever since.
I did hang glide avidly for a while though (with the same friend, lol), and some folks thinks that's almost as nuts.
Witticism: "If at first you don't succeed
skydiving is not for you."
Smackem223
New member
Originally Posted By: redeyeddawg
No doubt young Alex is now a racist tea bagger.
My daughter is a senior in public school and had a teacher lecturing the class about how we need illegals to do any and all jobs in this country so we can compete in a global economy. She said she was in shock while most of the drones saw his point. She chose to be quiet. I told her to just innocently ask how any of her classmates could someday buy a house or a vehicle.
No doubt young Alex is now a racist tea bagger.
My daughter is a senior in public school and had a teacher lecturing the class about how we need illegals to do any and all jobs in this country so we can compete in a global economy. She said she was in shock while most of the drones saw his point. She chose to be quiet. I told her to just innocently ask how any of her classmates could someday buy a house or a vehicle.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:As far as teaching being a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks, you couldn't be further from the truth. Teaching is all about the application my friend. Dealing with 20-30 different personalities and learning styles all at once and making sure it's getting through, well sir that's nothing that can be learned in a textbook.
I tend to agree with you Mike, but apparently the "system" doesn't.
This from the curriculum for a BSE (just cause it was easy to get to).
Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.
It is my strong suspicion based on MY personal experience that the best teachers especially in the lower elementary grades are "mothers" first and teachers second. I suspect that the skill of teaching a particular subject doesn't really start to come into play until 5th or 6th grade, when students stop being "little kids" and start becoming "young adults".
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Quote:I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it.
I'm sure you could give me many examples from personal experience. That in no way affects the validity of the studies above (and more) that show that in general (statistically) the higher the academic ability, the higher the quality of teacher.
That is not only true of teaching, it's true of any profession. The engineer that graduates from MIT with honors will statistically be more qualified than the one that barely graduates from Podunk U (though there will be exceptions to this too). That statistical probability is the reason the MIT graduate will command a higher entry level wage too.
The studies have found that not only do fewer higher academic ability students go into teaching in the first place, a high percentage of those "exceptions" that do, don't last, and the biggest single reason is the lack of ability to advance based on skill instead of seniority.
Quote:One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook.
Yes and in fact they do and can. That is one of the reasons that those higher quartile students go into higher paying professions because they are academically able to.
I tend to agree with you Mike, but apparently the "system" doesn't.
This from the curriculum for a BSE (just cause it was easy to get to).
Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.
It is my strong suspicion based on MY personal experience that the best teachers especially in the lower elementary grades are "mothers" first and teachers second. I suspect that the skill of teaching a particular subject doesn't really start to come into play until 5th or 6th grade, when students stop being "little kids" and start becoming "young adults".
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Quote:I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it.
I'm sure you could give me many examples from personal experience. That in no way affects the validity of the studies above (and more) that show that in general (statistically) the higher the academic ability, the higher the quality of teacher.
That is not only true of teaching, it's true of any profession. The engineer that graduates from MIT with honors will statistically be more qualified than the one that barely graduates from Podunk U (though there will be exceptions to this too). That statistical probability is the reason the MIT graduate will command a higher entry level wage too.
The studies have found that not only do fewer higher academic ability students go into teaching in the first place, a high percentage of those "exceptions" that do, don't last, and the biggest single reason is the lack of ability to advance based on skill instead of seniority.
Quote:One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook.
Yes and in fact they do and can. That is one of the reasons that those higher quartile students go into higher paying professions because they are academically able to.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:you said "I have never claimed to "own everyone"
Actually you said to me something very akin to "I've owned you on a couple of occasions"
I have said that to you jeffo, right here in the open forum, no need to go looking. Read the whole post again though.
The context was that in the back room I had claimed to "own everyone". That I have NOT done.
Quote:nmleon said "For example the press has reported in many articles that the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics) says there is an 85% high school graduation rate in the U.S., while most other studies put it at 75% or less. Hmmm studies disagreeing with each other."
and
"There are of course a couple of glaring problems with that."
then said
"No sir, "real life experiences" do NOT "trump studies and research", and it is in fact absurd for you to even suggest it."
Wait a minute, isn't that a contradiction? We should believe studies that disagree with each other and have glaring problems? Are you basing your entire premise on real life experiences or studies and research?
Again, read the post for context. I pointed out that peer reviewed studies that seemingly disagreed with other usually don't actually disagree with each other.
The NCES data that was reported by the media as showing an 85% graduation rate is actually the NCES reporting on high school completion rates using non vigorous data. As I said in the post, the NCES isn't trying to pull the wool over anybodies eyes, they don't claim it's graduation data (and give the source and methodology), the media do.
The NCES reports using soft data on completion.
Another reports data on graduation comparing all seniors enrolled at the end of the year compared to graduation data.
Another reports using data from 9th grade enrollment 4 years previous compared to graduation data, controlling for 9th graders held back etc.
Though each comes up with a different percentage, none of them disagree with each other, they are measuring different things.
Any good statistical analysis will give precise methods of data collection, methodology, etc.
The articles that get written (supposedly) using the study as a source, often get the results completely wrong.
Actually you said to me something very akin to "I've owned you on a couple of occasions"
I have said that to you jeffo, right here in the open forum, no need to go looking. Read the whole post again though.
The context was that in the back room I had claimed to "own everyone". That I have NOT done.
Quote:nmleon said "For example the press has reported in many articles that the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics) says there is an 85% high school graduation rate in the U.S., while most other studies put it at 75% or less. Hmmm studies disagreeing with each other."
and
"There are of course a couple of glaring problems with that."
then said
"No sir, "real life experiences" do NOT "trump studies and research", and it is in fact absurd for you to even suggest it."
Wait a minute, isn't that a contradiction? We should believe studies that disagree with each other and have glaring problems? Are you basing your entire premise on real life experiences or studies and research?
Again, read the post for context. I pointed out that peer reviewed studies that seemingly disagreed with other usually don't actually disagree with each other.
The NCES data that was reported by the media as showing an 85% graduation rate is actually the NCES reporting on high school completion rates using non vigorous data. As I said in the post, the NCES isn't trying to pull the wool over anybodies eyes, they don't claim it's graduation data (and give the source and methodology), the media do.
The NCES reports using soft data on completion.
Another reports data on graduation comparing all seniors enrolled at the end of the year compared to graduation data.
Another reports using data from 9th grade enrollment 4 years previous compared to graduation data, controlling for 9th graders held back etc.
Though each comes up with a different percentage, none of them disagree with each other, they are measuring different things.
Any good statistical analysis will give precise methods of data collection, methodology, etc.
The articles that get written (supposedly) using the study as a source, often get the results completely wrong.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:nmleon- I have said this before and I will repeat it over and over. That you discount the opinion and points made by SCORES of people at all levels of the teaching profession shows that you are not able to process important and pertinent information regarding the topic.
I think that your pride stands in the way of the facts. You REFUSE to admit that the dozen or so teachers/administrators that have posted in these threads have made valid points concerning the topics presented. I can only imagine this is a flaw in character that must permeate everything in your life.
I'll try this again Scott.
I am sure that all the teachers here at PM are examples of the finest qualities of teachers possible, otherwise they wouldn't be here. The question is: How relevant is personal experience in a classroom to a debate on national education policy?
Your personal experiences are extremely important to you and your students. They will (hopefully) make you an effective teacher and lead to a fruitful learning experience for your kids.
Your personal experiences are no doubt appreciated by your principal as well, though he has many more teachers and classrooms to contend with, so he can't let you take up a whole lot of his personal experience.
Your personal experiences are down in the mud somewhere for your district superintendent. He has scads of teachers at scads of schools to worry about.
Your personal experiences are essentially meaningless to Tom Horne, the head state guy. You are just one teacher among thousands in his personal experience.
Nationally? You and your personal experiences are not even a blip on the radar screen.
The personal experiences of teachers mean nothing in a debate about national policy.
Quote:You can sit here and argue your points with extremely long posts citing articles you find on the internet and your personal beliefs until you are blue in the face. You are an outsider looking INTO the window of education and are not in the classroom interacting with students.
My posts are long to disseminate information. You don't get to dictate the length of them, you are a guest here not a mod.
Though you continually misrepresent it, I have cited exactly 2 "articles" in this whole debate, as outlined above.
My citations have for the most part been of peer reviewed analyses done by people with far more education and experience in education policy than you.
Let's see now. We have a debate about national education policy. On the one hand we have the "personal" experiences of a 6th grade teacher. On the other hand we have numerous analyses often by professors of education and their post docs who have made national education policy their life's work.
Hmmm, which one to go with?
Better question, why on earth would any rational person listen to the 6th grade teacher given those options?
I choose that MY "personal opinions" are developed from hard data collected nationwide over many decades by people with FAR more education and experience in education policy than you (or any other school teacher back here), thank you very much.
You seem to have no clue when it comes to even basic statistical analysis. Don't they at least give an introduction to statistical analysis in high school anymore? Analytical algebra? Anything?
I think that your pride stands in the way of the facts. You REFUSE to admit that the dozen or so teachers/administrators that have posted in these threads have made valid points concerning the topics presented. I can only imagine this is a flaw in character that must permeate everything in your life.
I'll try this again Scott.
I am sure that all the teachers here at PM are examples of the finest qualities of teachers possible, otherwise they wouldn't be here. The question is: How relevant is personal experience in a classroom to a debate on national education policy?
Your personal experiences are extremely important to you and your students. They will (hopefully) make you an effective teacher and lead to a fruitful learning experience for your kids.
Your personal experiences are no doubt appreciated by your principal as well, though he has many more teachers and classrooms to contend with, so he can't let you take up a whole lot of his personal experience.
Your personal experiences are down in the mud somewhere for your district superintendent. He has scads of teachers at scads of schools to worry about.
Your personal experiences are essentially meaningless to Tom Horne, the head state guy. You are just one teacher among thousands in his personal experience.
Nationally? You and your personal experiences are not even a blip on the radar screen.
The personal experiences of teachers mean nothing in a debate about national policy.
Quote:You can sit here and argue your points with extremely long posts citing articles you find on the internet and your personal beliefs until you are blue in the face. You are an outsider looking INTO the window of education and are not in the classroom interacting with students.
My posts are long to disseminate information. You don't get to dictate the length of them, you are a guest here not a mod.
Though you continually misrepresent it, I have cited exactly 2 "articles" in this whole debate, as outlined above.
My citations have for the most part been of peer reviewed analyses done by people with far more education and experience in education policy than you.
Let's see now. We have a debate about national education policy. On the one hand we have the "personal" experiences of a 6th grade teacher. On the other hand we have numerous analyses often by professors of education and their post docs who have made national education policy their life's work.
Hmmm, which one to go with?
Better question, why on earth would any rational person listen to the 6th grade teacher given those options?
I choose that MY "personal opinions" are developed from hard data collected nationwide over many decades by people with FAR more education and experience in education policy than you (or any other school teacher back here), thank you very much.
You seem to have no clue when it comes to even basic statistical analysis. Don't they at least give an introduction to statistical analysis in high school anymore? Analytical algebra? Anything?
Hyperwrx
New member
Quote:I suspect that the skill of teaching a particular subject doesn't really start to come into play until 5th or 6th grade, when students stop being "little kids" and start becoming "young adults".
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Well it would be my personal observation being in and around classrooms, schools, and students on a daily basis for well over a decade that your limited observation is incorrect.
What grade do kids learn to read?
What grade to kids learn about how to tell time?
What grade do kids learn about money and the calendar?
Believe it or not but science and social studies are taught starting at K and 1 and progress from there.
If you go look at the Arizona Department of Education and the state standards for grade 1 you will see a slew of pertinent and essential material that if not taught and mastered the student does not have the building blocks to do much of anything.
To think that 1st grade teachers are nothing more than babysitters is an ignorant assumption.
Here are some of the 1st grade teachers curriculum that the student needs to know by the time they finish 1st grade. This is only math.
PO 1. Express whole numbers 0 to 100, in groups of tens and ones using and connecting multiple representations.
PO 2. Count forward to 100 and backward from 100 by 1s and 10s using different starting points, and count forward to 100 by 2s and 5s.
PO 3. Identify numbers which are 10 more or less than a given number to 90.
PO 4. Compare and order whole numbers through 100 by applying the concepts of place value.
PO 5. Recognize and compare ordinal numbers, first through tenth.
PO 1. Solve contextual problems using multiple representations for addition and subtraction facts.
PO 2. Demonstrate addition and subtraction of numbers that total less than 100 by using various representations that connect to place value concepts.
PO 3. Develop and use multiple strategies for addition facts to 10+10 and their related subtraction facts.
PO 4. Create word problems based on addition and subtraction facts.
PO 5. Apply properties to solve addition/subtraction problems
•
identity property of addition/subtraction and
•
commutative property of addition.
PO 1. Use estimation to determine if sums are more or less than 5, more or less than 10, or more or less than 20.
PO 1. Collect, record, organize, and display data using tally charts or pictographs.
PO 2. Ask and answer questions by interpreting simple displays of data, including tally charts or pictographs.
OK that was 8 of 24 pages of objectives for JUST MATH. Now add reading (which kids are learning o do in 1st grade, writing, science, social studies to that and its surely not just wiping noses and walking kids to the bathroom.
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Well it would be my personal observation being in and around classrooms, schools, and students on a daily basis for well over a decade that your limited observation is incorrect.
What grade do kids learn to read?
What grade to kids learn about how to tell time?
What grade do kids learn about money and the calendar?
Believe it or not but science and social studies are taught starting at K and 1 and progress from there.
If you go look at the Arizona Department of Education and the state standards for grade 1 you will see a slew of pertinent and essential material that if not taught and mastered the student does not have the building blocks to do much of anything.
To think that 1st grade teachers are nothing more than babysitters is an ignorant assumption.
Here are some of the 1st grade teachers curriculum that the student needs to know by the time they finish 1st grade. This is only math.
PO 1. Express whole numbers 0 to 100, in groups of tens and ones using and connecting multiple representations.
PO 2. Count forward to 100 and backward from 100 by 1s and 10s using different starting points, and count forward to 100 by 2s and 5s.
PO 3. Identify numbers which are 10 more or less than a given number to 90.
PO 4. Compare and order whole numbers through 100 by applying the concepts of place value.
PO 5. Recognize and compare ordinal numbers, first through tenth.
PO 1. Solve contextual problems using multiple representations for addition and subtraction facts.
PO 2. Demonstrate addition and subtraction of numbers that total less than 100 by using various representations that connect to place value concepts.
PO 3. Develop and use multiple strategies for addition facts to 10+10 and their related subtraction facts.
PO 4. Create word problems based on addition and subtraction facts.
PO 5. Apply properties to solve addition/subtraction problems
•
identity property of addition/subtraction and
•
commutative property of addition.
PO 1. Use estimation to determine if sums are more or less than 5, more or less than 10, or more or less than 20.
PO 1. Collect, record, organize, and display data using tally charts or pictographs.
PO 2. Ask and answer questions by interpreting simple displays of data, including tally charts or pictographs.
OK that was 8 of 24 pages of objectives for JUST MATH. Now add reading (which kids are learning o do in 1st grade, writing, science, social studies to that and its surely not just wiping noses and walking kids to the bathroom.
Originally Posted By: nmleonQuote:As far as teaching being a skill that can be readily learned from textbooks, you couldn't be further from the truth. Teaching is all about the application my friend. Dealing with 20-30 different personalities and learning styles all at once and making sure it's getting through, well sir that's nothing that can be learned in a textbook.
I tend to agree with you Mike, but apparently the "system" doesn't.
This from the curriculum for a BSE (just cause it was easy to get to).
Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.
It is my strong suspicion based on MY personal experience that the best teachers especially in the lower elementary grades are "mothers" first and teachers second. I suspect that the skill of teaching a particular subject doesn't really start to come into play until 5th or 6th grade, when students stop being "little kids" and start becoming "young adults".
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Quote:I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it.
I'm sure you could give me many examples from personal experience. That in no way affects the validity of the studies above (and more) that show that in general (statistically) the higher the academic ability, the higher the quality of teacher.
That is not only true of teaching, it's true of any profession. The engineer that graduates from MIT with honors will statistically be more qualified than the one that barely graduates from Podunk U (though there will be exceptions to this too). That statistical probability is the reason the MIT graduate will command a higher entry level wage too.
The studies have found that not only do fewer higher academic ability students go into teaching in the first place, a high percentage of those "exceptions" that do, don't last, and the biggest single reason is the lack of ability to advance based on skill instead of seniority.
Quote:One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook.
Yes and in fact they do and can. That is one of the reasons that those higher quartile students go into higher paying professions because they are academically able to.
There's an important piece missing here. People skills. The ability to deal with (other people's) children constantly. If you are a "higher academic ability" student just looking for money, chances are you couldn't cut it as a teacher. I've heard that somewhere around 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years. It's not because of the pay - they wouldn't have started in the first place if that were the case - it's because they haven't got what it takes. It's an intrinsic thing, probably impossible to measure. Teachers have this in addition to college-level education.
I tend to agree with you Mike, but apparently the "system" doesn't.
This from the curriculum for a BSE (just cause it was easy to get to).
Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.
It is my strong suspicion based on MY personal experience that the best teachers especially in the lower elementary grades are "mothers" first and teachers second. I suspect that the skill of teaching a particular subject doesn't really start to come into play until 5th or 6th grade, when students stop being "little kids" and start becoming "young adults".
Just from personal observation, k-2nd grade teachers aren't doing a substantially different job than preschool "teachers", most of whom aren't required to have a degree at all.
Quote:I could give you plenty of examples of excellent students that made lousy teachers, or couldn't handle it.
I'm sure you could give me many examples from personal experience. That in no way affects the validity of the studies above (and more) that show that in general (statistically) the higher the academic ability, the higher the quality of teacher.
That is not only true of teaching, it's true of any profession. The engineer that graduates from MIT with honors will statistically be more qualified than the one that barely graduates from Podunk U (though there will be exceptions to this too). That statistical probability is the reason the MIT graduate will command a higher entry level wage too.
The studies have found that not only do fewer higher academic ability students go into teaching in the first place, a high percentage of those "exceptions" that do, don't last, and the biggest single reason is the lack of ability to advance based on skill instead of seniority.
Quote:One could more easily make the argument that some of the "higher quartile" jobs require skills that can be more easily learned in a textbook.
Yes and in fact they do and can. That is one of the reasons that those higher quartile students go into higher paying professions because they are academically able to.
There's an important piece missing here. People skills. The ability to deal with (other people's) children constantly. If you are a "higher academic ability" student just looking for money, chances are you couldn't cut it as a teacher. I've heard that somewhere around 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years. It's not because of the pay - they wouldn't have started in the first place if that were the case - it's because they haven't got what it takes. It's an intrinsic thing, probably impossible to measure. Teachers have this in addition to college-level education.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:Well it would be my personal observation being in and around classrooms, schools, and students on a daily basis for well over a decade that your limited observation is incorrect.
So, Scott, you seem to disagree with Mike and I, I take it you are one of the group who DO think that teaching can be taught from a textbook?
How important are the understanding/nurturing (mothering) skills to a kindergarten teacher compared to subject matter teaching ability? 20%, 10%, 60%?
So, Scott, you seem to disagree with Mike and I, I take it you are one of the group who DO think that teaching can be taught from a textbook?
How important are the understanding/nurturing (mothering) skills to a kindergarten teacher compared to subject matter teaching ability? 20%, 10%, 60%?
NM Leon
New member
Quote:There's an important piece missing here. People skills. The ability to deal with (other people's) children constantly.
No doubt there any number of "important pieces missing".
The person who was a recluse by nature probably wouldn't go into any field where he would have to deal with people.
The person who is uncomfortable around groups of small children probably wouldn't select for k-3rd or 4th grade.
Quote:If you are a "higher academic ability" student just looking for money, chances are you couldn't cut it as a teacher.
If money were your sole criteria, then you certainly wouldn't choose teaching. Money IS important though, witness the complaints from you and Scott about teacher pay. In any case, the inability to rise in pay scale because of some doofus being senior is the single biggest reason (there are certainly others too).
Quote:I've heard that somewhere around 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years. It's not because of the pay - they wouldn't have started in the first place if that were the case - it's because they haven't got what it takes.
Or they are frustrated with the advancement system (above), or they get pregnant, etc, etc. There are a multiplicity of reasons.
Quote:It's an intrinsic thing, probably impossible to measure. Teachers have this in addition to college-level education.
So you also fall into the "teaching can't be taught out of a textbook" school of thought (pun intended)?
No doubt there any number of "important pieces missing".
The person who was a recluse by nature probably wouldn't go into any field where he would have to deal with people.
The person who is uncomfortable around groups of small children probably wouldn't select for k-3rd or 4th grade.
Quote:If you are a "higher academic ability" student just looking for money, chances are you couldn't cut it as a teacher.
If money were your sole criteria, then you certainly wouldn't choose teaching. Money IS important though, witness the complaints from you and Scott about teacher pay. In any case, the inability to rise in pay scale because of some doofus being senior is the single biggest reason (there are certainly others too).
Quote:I've heard that somewhere around 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first 5 years. It's not because of the pay - they wouldn't have started in the first place if that were the case - it's because they haven't got what it takes.
Or they are frustrated with the advancement system (above), or they get pregnant, etc, etc. There are a multiplicity of reasons.
Quote:It's an intrinsic thing, probably impossible to measure. Teachers have this in addition to college-level education.
So you also fall into the "teaching can't be taught out of a textbook" school of thought (pun intended)?