Waco and Ruby ridge all over again

Originally Posted By: C.JayOriginally Posted By: dogcatcher....While Bundy had his head up his rear and refused to pay the lease fees, it was leased to the conservation group for the turtles.

Yes, this is true, however, I do believe the issue is the snipers, helicopters and tazers brought out to control the crowd of protesters and the rancher and his family. Kinda like Randy Weaver brought under siege by Lon Horiuchi and the FBI for missing a court date and cutting an 870 less than 1/8" too short. Lets not even mention the benevolent governments flagging off a "1st amendment" area for these protesters, thereby restricting their right to free speech in the rest of the area.
This could end bad.

Oh, and the backhoe and dump truck brought in to render the cattle.

Edited to add:

If he broke the law, wait until he goes to town and file charges on him, arrest him, whatever. But we all know that is not the motivation as they could have done that to David Koresh as well, and saved the lives of both federal agents and members of the Davidian compound.

It is about control and making sure the good subjects submit to the benevolent good of the peoples government.
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With the rancher issuing threats, refusing to remove the cattle even though he was given plenty of time, The son getting in a confrontation with the BLM people, The members from 3 out of state "militia" saying they are coming armed, and the rancher saying e will comply with the court order. Maybe they thought they needed the backup. The daughter the son and the rancher have lied too the media, again and again playing the innocent offended party even though it has been through all of the courts and they have consistently lost.

If that was your private ranch land and he leased from you and did not pay, and claimed it as his property, would you just ignore it? Would you let someone take your property without calling the police and having them help you get it back, even if it caused a shoot out?
 
Originally Posted By: GRIZZLYONEAh yes, another fine example of how Obama is 'bringing the country together'. Grizz

This started in 1993, it did not finish going through the court system until last year. How many Presidents have let Bundy steal from the taxpayers? His bill at this time is in excess of 1 million dollars.
 
Here's an experiment try getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, kicking the officers police dog, threatening the officer, heck maybe even crash your ATV into his vehicle. He'll probably just let you off with a warning......
 
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Originally Posted By: KyleCoyoteHere's an experiment try getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, kicking the officers police dog, threatening the officer, heck maybe even crash your ATV into his vehicle. He'll probably just let you off with a warning......

Here here... I find it interesting that so many folks defend this incidence as "his family has been trespassing for generations, why shouldn't they be allowed to trespass now?" If I have an agreement with my neighbor that he can graze his cows on my property (which I DO have such agreements), and then he doesn't pay me, doesn't it stand to reason that I'm going to lock the gates between our properties, and take legal recourse to recover what he owes me?

And if my neighbor gathers a crowd to threaten, harass, and detain my ranch-hand that I send to lock the gate, wouldn't it stand to reason that I'd want the police involved to defend my worker?

Ok, in this case, rather than being 500acres of land that my grandfather owns that my farm services company manages (his, mine, my fathers, and 2 uncles land), it's owned by the state and MANAGED by the federal government.

I do know if I was the truck driver getting paid to be there that day, I'd have been d@mn glad that the officers were there.

And as far as the "tragedy" that a K9 unit was within 3ft of a pregnant woman, or a 57yr old cancer patient got thrown to the deck, or that some redneck got tazed for kicking at a K9 officer... Ya know, if I get bit by a lion, my first mistake was going to the zoo and climbing over the railing...
 
Interesting that people are willing to do so much killing to get the government paid for sage land that is of no use to anyone except cows and turtles. Who thinks that if the lease was paid in full any citizen would see a dime of it. I agree the rancher needs to move his cows. I think it could have been handled without officers and drones. Are they really going to kill the cows? If my neighbors cows were on my land and I had no cows I would be glad they were. They would make something productive out of the pasture that would otherwise just grow up. People who don't know anything about the land or cattle are willing to kill someone over turtles? I know, it's been through the courts , to bad the courts can't take decisive action on the IRS, Fast and lose gun running, lying under oath, dead Americans in Bengasi, the cows have been munching grass, at this point what difference does it make. As far as tax money, how do you feel about buying the beef this guy produces, paying the tax on it, for the nonworking types. I know, this has been through the courts, and the courts are always right, so kill the cows, and anyone who gets in the way. The turtle farmers have the money to pay the lease, and that's all that matters. The government just can't be pushed around this way. After all, the land belongs to the government, why would they want it to be productive. Now that the terrorist are on the run, and our major cities are flourishing, the feds have got to find something to do to justify their existence. Come on, the cows are not on the White House lawn.
 
Quote:Come on, the cows are not on the White House lawn.....Too Bad...They would be much more productive in a positive manner than what is there now...
 
apprently the family owned the land until the feds decided that was an endangered turtle on it.

can't have cattle on the land bc maybe they'd step on some turtles or something, but if they're willing to pay for the right, well then I guess it's just too damned bad for the turtles.

Looks like they're only endangered until enough money changes hands.
 
Originally Posted By: dogcatcherOriginally Posted By: C.JayOriginally Posted By: dogcatcher....While Bundy had his head up his rear and refused to pay the lease fees, it was leased to the conservation group for the turtles.

Yes, this is true, however, I do believe the issue is the snipers, helicopters and tazers brought out to control the crowd of protesters and the rancher and his family. Kinda like Randy Weaver brought under siege by Lon Horiuchi and the FBI for missing a court date and cutting an 870 less than 1/8" too short. Lets not even mention the benevolent governments flagging off a "1st amendment" area for these protesters, thereby restricting their right to free speech in the rest of the area.
This could end bad.

Oh, and the backhoe and dump truck brought in to render the cattle.

Edited to add:

If he broke the law, wait until he goes to town and file charges on him, arrest him, whatever. But we all know that is not the motivation as they could have done that to David Koresh as well, and saved the lives of both federal agents and members of the Davidian compound.

It is about control and making sure the good subjects submit to the benevolent good of the peoples government.
thumbup1.gif


With the rancher issuing threats, refusing to remove the cattle even though he was given plenty of time, The son getting in a confrontation with the BLM people, The members from 3 out of state "militia" saying they are coming armed, and the rancher saying e will comply with the court order. Maybe they thought they needed the backup. The daughter the son and the rancher have lied too the media, again and again playing the innocent offended party even though it has been through all of the courts and they have consistently lost.

If that was your private ranch land and he leased from you and did not pay, and claimed it as his property, would you just ignore it? Would you let someone take your property without calling the police and having them help you get it back, even if it caused a shoot out?

Actually, none of this happened before the BLM showed up on the sence with 200 heavily armed agents. It has happened because BLM forces showed up with 200 armed agents. This is typical of the US government agentcies, this is how Ruby Ridge happened, and this is how Waco happened. Had anyone knocked on the front door and said they were there to enforce a court order, maybe nothing happens, cows are removed and there is no big showdown. But, this is the government telling us peons that they have the power to do whatever they want, and we better not resist. I'm glad that people are showing up to prove them wrong..
 
"apprently the family owned the land until the feds decided that was an endangered turtle on it."

They never owned it per say, but they did own the right's to graze it, as well as the rights to any water it contained, which is a big deal in the west..
 
still, I note that the only problem in protecting the endangered turtle from the menace of cattle here seems to be the lack of payment.

seems that if they were truly endangered, they wouldn't let any cattle or other large livestock on the land, period.
 
The turtle is just a cover to justify the land takeover. BLM has been selling oil fracking leases on that land. Lots of money in Oil, not much in turtles. I wonder what else they will turn up? Maybe reid is getting paid off. I haven't heard him say anything yet, it is his backyard. Now the Militia's have shown up, I can just see o declaring a Martial Law Emergency soon.
 
Originally Posted By: Stu Farishstill, I note that the only problem in protecting the endangered turtle from the menace of cattle here seems to be the lack of payment.

seems that if they were truly endangered, they wouldn't let any cattle or other large livestock on the land, period.

The desert tortoise is found in many areas of the southwest, not just the Bundy livestock allotment. There are also other things that may receive protection in grazing management plans such as endangered plants, endangered rodents, wildlife, cultural resources, etc. The desert tortoise is just one of several things that livestock permitees deal with to graze cattle on public lands in the southwest. I don't think the turtle is the issue. What is the issue is that the Bundy's do not want to pay for their grazing lease and want to graze cattle on public lands without consideration of other land uses on their allotment.
 
There is a conservation organization that took over the lease, that made a lease payment. Now the Bundy cattle are not only trespassing on BML land, they are also trespassing on the other leases rights.

The Bundy's never owned the land, his dad and granddad both leased and made lease payments. So did Cliven Bundy until 1993, at which time he decided he owned the land and stopped making payments.

Leaving the government out of it, if it was a private lease between 2 individuals, we wouldn't be discussing it. The landowner would be considered to be doing what is right to get the cattle off of his land. We as citizens are the landowners, those that support the Bundys are willing to give them 600,000 acres of my land without just compensation.
 
Originally Posted By: dogcatcher We as citizens are the landowners, those that support the Bundys are willing to give them 600,000 acres of my land without just compensation.
+1

I would hate to see 600,000 acres of public land transferred to private ownership because someone felt they were above the law and had a group of anti government types wanting to make them a folk hero. Whether someone is squatting on public land or allowing their cattle to trespass, they need to be removed. When they refuse to cooperate, they deserve to be forced off.
 
I don't have very firm opinions on this as they aren't very well informed. I haven't been able to really follow this and just have odd bits & pieces.
 
Originally Posted By: dogcatcherThere is a conservation organization that took over the lease, that made a lease payment. Now the Bundy cattle are not only trespassing on BML land, they are also trespassing on the other leases rights.

The Bundy's never owned the land, his dad and granddad both leased and made lease payments. So did Cliven Bundy until 1993, at which time he decided he owned the land and stopped making payments.

Leaving the government out of it, if it was a private lease between 2 individuals, we wouldn't be discussing it. The landowner would be considered to be doing what is right to get the cattle off of his land. We as citizens are the landowners, those that support the Bundys are willing to give them 600,000 acres of my land without just compensation.

If that is your land and not the governments land why don't you leave the old boy alone before something bad happens. It ain't worth it in this case. If everyone would go home he would probably move the cows. What is the rush. I have had neighbors stock stay with me all winter before, was not worth fighting over. If it is the peoples land lets vote on it. If it's the governments land I guess they will impose their will as they see fit. Maybe Holder should start an investigation. That way he could get a couple more crops of calves at least before anything could happen. If any of it is my land I want it under the stewardship of an Rancher, not the feds, or environmentalist. They don't know anything about how to use land. How will the Turtles fair when that land grows up wild and lightning sets it on fire. If the government wants to manage the land they should pay the rancher to keep doing what he is doing. If his family has managed it for so long, and it will still support a cow, they must know what they are doing. As far as taxpayers money, he can have my 17 cents share. I would be willing to bet that the gov. trucks have sat idling and burned more dollars than the lease comes to. Add: Whoever owns the land, it don't change anything just because a cow walks on it, or someone makes a claim. The gov let this go since 93,the turtle people want the cows off, why don't the turtle people work it out man to man. If there are still turtles then the cows are not the problem.
 
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I'm in the same boat stu, there is a lot of hearsay to the story. I don't know wether this is a stunt to try to get a huge bill dismissed, or if it's another heavy handed act by gov.
 
Originally Posted By: tnshootistOriginally Posted By: dogcatcherThere is a conservation organization that took over the lease, that made a lease payment. Now the Bundy cattle are not only trespassing on BML land, they are also trespassing on the other leases rights.

The Bundy's never owned the land, his dad and granddad both leased and made lease payments. So did Cliven Bundy until 1993, at which time he decided he owned the land and stopped making payments.

Leaving the government out of it, if it was a private lease between 2 individuals, we wouldn't be discussing it. The landowner would be considered to be doing what is right to get the cattle off of his land. We as citizens are the landowners, those that support the Bundys are willing to give them 600,000 acres of my land without just compensation.

If that is your land and not the governments land why don't you leave the old boy alone before something bad happens. It ain't worth it in this case. If everyone would go home he would probably move the cows. What is the rush. I have had neighbors stock stay with me all winter before, was not worth fighting over. If it is the peoples land lets vote on it. If it's the governments land I guess they will impose their will as they see fit. Maybe Holder should start an investigation. That way he could get a couple more crops of calves at least before anything could happen. If any of it is my land I want it under the stewardship of an Rancher, not the feds, or environmentalist. They don't know anything about how to use land. How will the Turtles fair when that land grows up wild and lightning sets it on fire. If the government wants to manage the land they should pay the rancher to keep doing what he is doing. If his family has managed it for so long, and it will still support a cow, they must know what they are doing. As far as taxpayers money, he can have my 17 cents share. I would be willing to bet that the gov. trucks have sat idling and burned more dollars than the lease comes to.

What is the rush? This cluster has been going on for over 20 years without him making his lease payments.

You may let your neighbors winter their cattle on your place, mine won't. They would have me in court at the first available date.
 
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