NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...

GC,

I just got through reading this entire thread and think you pretty well summed it up in your last post. I agree that 50 yards is not a gimme, and to find a combination that will reliably do it sometimes takes a lot of effort/chokes/ and ammunition, even then some luck mixed in don't hurt. On any shotgunned coyote I always plan on giving him another dose or two, especially on the longer shots. I would say my average shotgunned coyote is less than 40 yards and don't need a second shot but over 40 they sometimes do and experience has taught me that when in doubt give him some more. I've even been known to cut the distance a few yards before giving him another.

On deciding between the heavy weights and lead I will always go with the heavy weights for the extra energy as well as hardness. They just flat out penetrate and break bones better. I've killed lots of coyotes and a few cats with the DC and a couple with the HD stuff and it just flat crushes bones and penetrates better than anything I've ever used. It is more expensive but worth the extra cost to me. With guys like you putting in the work and narrowing down what works the best it will save us all a bunch of money narrowing down our best combinations to try for ourselves.

I plan on testing the Remington HD more in the next few weeks when I get more chokes and my shotgun. I did however cut open a DC load and a HD load to see what the difference was, if any. Here are a couple of pictures of what I saw. It’s apparent that the HD stuff is slicker looking and is slightly more uniform. Not sure how they are made but the Remington stuff is not as brittle as the DC. Not sure whether or not it makes a difference or not but I was unable to break the Remington shot with pliers and was easily able to crush the DC stuff. I'd heard rumors that the Remington stuff was softer. I don't think so as I was unable to get a mark on it with considerable effort on the pliers. Keep in mind I'm not saying this makes it more effective on coyotes at all. It's simply just an observation.
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Thanks everyone for sharing your results.

Byron
 
I have an original Pattern Master for my 10ga BPS. It was purchased somewhere around 1992-1994?, can't remember exactly when. It does have wad stripping lugs in it. I was never particularly impressed with it's performance with lead shot, but it did pattern the slower (
 
GC and everyone else, Went home last night and looked. Guess I'm getting old. Choke tube is from Ballistic Specialties. (Angle Port) .695 unported Invector Plus. Guess I shouldn't type from memory without checking the facts. Was advertising for the wrong company. I've got tubes from most everyone. Anyway you guys are all missing the origional suggestion. Try an extended unported choke about .005-.010 tighter than lead full in your gun for Hevi-shot. Make sure it's hardened. I also found (at least in the guns I've played with) that you CAN improve patterns handloading Hevi-Shot over factory just like you can improve groups in a rifle. I was also surprised at the DRAMATIC changes to a pattern you can make with small adjustments. Also, remember all the work I have done has been with the 3-1/2" 12ga, because of differences in wad column I'm more than sure your results will be different. I'm also very confident you can get to 50yds with handloads and some work. You might also have to have some barrel work done, but it is possible. I am also 99.5% sure I could get to 60yds with a 3-1/2" 12ga and some load work.
 
BTW guys Here's some food for thought. A Giant Canada weighs about 15-17 lbs. When we shot them with lead we used BB's. When we started shooting Hevi-Shot thats where we started. Crippled everything over 40 yds. Went to 1's same problem. Went to 2's Magic! 2's will shoot completely through one at 60-70yds with most of the pellets. I've cleaned hundreds of the durn things. Pattern density was the key. Guys, a 15-17lb goose is pretty dense and tough! I think you might be able to drop down a size or two and get your 100% kill at 50yds you're looking for. This stuff penetrates much differently than lead. The extra weight combined with less frontal area makes more difference than you think. I think your answer is BB's or 1's, not T's. to get your 100% kills. I also think in a 3" it will be a handload.
 
Byron, Not sure if the rounder pellets in the rem shells will pattern any better, but the shot string WILL be shorter. Super long shot strings have always been the limiting factor on Hevi-Shot at long range. The stuff strings so bad it will only kill about 1/2 as far on a crossing shot as a straitht away.
 
Edit:
I have served my one month "ban", and I'll gladly take my permanent ban whenever dictator Redfrog is ready. Thank you.

Wise up boys and girls. Redfrog needs to be kicked to the curb.
 
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Joel, Reloading Specialties has a retail outlet called Buck's Run. You can access it from their web site. They have or had every size made. They sell it in 10# bags for about the same price as Ballistic Products sells their plastic jars for. BUT I use Ballistic Products Other components most of the time.
 
Over the years I have killed quite a few coyotes with the 3" Federal Premium 1-7/8 oz of copper coated lead BB's. Now it looks like I will have to switch to lead free ammo in the area I hunt most in California. Since the Remington Wingmaster 3" BB shell has 23 more pellets in it than the HD and DC 3" T loads do I am going to use the Rem HD 3" BB. The Rem HD BB's out penetrate the good old Federal Premium BB's at 40 yards on the 3/4" plywood test by quite a bit. Most of the coyotes I shoot with a shotgun are at 30 yards and less. The only reason I am going to switch completely away from lead loads is because I have to. I am just glad I don't have to shoot steel shot.
 
No, We are being realistic. I know Heavy 2's will out perform lead BB's. Have several hundred dead geese to prove it. If lead BB's will kill Coyotes reliably at 40 yds, someone please shoot one with heavy 2's and report back. I still think the answer will be 1's, BB's, B's or maybe even 2's for 50yds. I just don't think the pattern density will be there with bigger shot, especially in a 3" gun. I'm keeping my .17Rem and 22-250!
 
We have one member in our crew that uses a shotgun on running coyotes his go to load is a load of cooper BB's in the chamber backed up with dead-coyote or buckshot in magizine. The BB's break the coyote down at longer shots and then the buckshot finishes them off.
 
Cat slayer-
Your smaller is better is right on the nose. Ive never tried the #2's in heavy shot, but the remington 1 3/4 oz single b load has accounted for more than a few coyotes at long range (40+). Its just so darn expensive.

The suggestion kinda spurred me to head to the range this morning- I took the chronograph and 4 loads and shot each one at 50 yards.

Heres what I came up with.
Remington 870 supermag 28 inch barrel, Millet red dot sight.

Winchester 3.5" #4 buck 54 pellets, Mark Drury 1003 .660 choke (Tried it this morning, not too impressed, I like the kick's better, but forgot it at home)
Velocity 1004 fps
5 pellets in a 8 inch circle.
.240 diameter, 20 gr, 790 fps at target, 28 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 140ft/lbs applied to target.

Remington 3.5" Hevishot B 1 3/4 oz (86 pellets), Remington full factory choke tube .708 (had good luck with this one and the improved modified with hevishot.)
Velocity 1259 fps
13 hits 8 inch circle.
.170 diameter, 9.5 gr, 874 fps at target, 16 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 208 ft/lbs applied to the target.

Environmetal Hevishot 2 3/4" 4 shot 1 1/4 ounce, remington full choke tube .708
Velocity 1208 fps
23 hits 8 inch circle
.13 diameter, 3.4 gr,750 fps at target, 4 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 92 ft/lbs applied to target.

Heres the neat one, made two shell this am, absolutely positively will investigate this one further.
Reload Hevishot 3.5" B 1 1/4 oz (56 pellets) Remington .708 full choke tube.
Velocity 1626 fps/1605 fps (fired both shells to be sure of chrono numbers)Fell short of data specs.
14 hits 8 inch circle/13 hits 8 inch circle
.170 diameter 9.5 gr, 965 fps at target, 19 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 266 ft/lbs applied to target.

An 8x8x1/2" plywood square was taped center to the back of each 15x17 cardboard target. All shells except the Environmetal 4 shot penetrated the plywood. It was shot again at 40 yards and penetrated. Im certain that the newer higher velocity shells would net better results.

Anyways, Yes, I agree most guys are using too tight a choke with the nontoxic shot and are suffering from rebound mentioned in the BPI library. And Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that 100 percent 50 yard knock em flat dead patterns are possible- with factory fodder no less. I just dont think that the bigger is better applies. I do not want to rely on the magic one hit kill either ( but I'd gladly take it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ), I want dense patterns and I think that some 2 hevishot goose loads would absolutely give those results. I know the single b load does, just ease back on the choke thats all.
 
GC,

Your post prompted me to get off my arse today and pattern my 870 with some Federal Premium 3" lead BBs. Gun was Rem 870 with the Rem. 21" scoped Rem choke barrel with HS Strut Undertaker extended choke tube, .675. Aim point was adjusted due to gun being sighted in for slugs.

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I think this will work for coyotes.

BoomSplat
 
I shoot a Mossberg 835 with 3 1/2" Hevi-Shot "Dead Coyote".
A couple years back I tested several and ended up using Trulock TKY .680.

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Trulock TKY .680 @ 50yds

Just had to try one of the new Carlson's Dead Coyote choke tubes I've been hearin'/readin' about.
Here's the results at 70yds.(Those are 3" targets. The X's are from other shots. The holes have been highlighted with a sharpie)
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Carlson's "Dead Coyote" tube.



70ydTKY.jpg

Trulock TKY .680

Here are a couple from my first tests.
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GAJoe
 
Thanks for contributing to the thread BoomSplat and GeorgiaJoe. Joe, your pictures in particular reveal why patterning is so important. The manufacturers make claims of 70 yard performance for that choke and load, however, it just isn't there in those patterns. Maybe some guns can make it happen, however, I've yet to see it. This is a good no BS thread about real results.
 
Yotenaylor, The 2's we've been getting weigh anywhere from 7.5-8.5grs. Ya know they look like rocks. There are about 130 pellets avg in a 1-7/8 oz load, if my memory serves. There are quite a few less pellets than the charts say. I think its b/c they use ruond pellets to give weights and numbers. All the shot I've ever bought has been somewhat oversized. This is another reason 2's might be better than they look on paper.
 
Quote:
This is a good no BS thread about real results.



GC, Have been lurking for the past year and working OT. Good to see your post and results. Hope this prompts members to do more research on their shotguns, chokes, and loads. Good Job!
 
I too did some more patterning this weekend here are the results.

All target shot at 40yds through a Dead Coyote tube using my 870 HD
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this is 3" #4 buck federal premium
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This is 2 3/4" #4 buck federal premium
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This is 3" BB hi density Federal Premium
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Im not sure what to think really after some of the other patterns here I dont think these are up to snuff. Since I forgot my other chokes 250 miles away /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I didnt have anything to compare these too at the time.

2 3/4" #4 really patterned well the last time, but has been really inconsistant, though it did well on a porcupine @ 50ish (the only shot i had) that was too close to the yard.
every time I use it, it shoots different, both the 3 and 2 3/4.

I do like the BB and most penetrated the 1/2 plywood at 40yds, found a few stuck in it, which is pretty good.

Does anyone know the constriction of the DC choke?


Just thought Id contribute a little to a really good thread

Thanks again for all the work guys

Dave
 
Quote:
Yotenaylor, The 2's we've been getting weigh anywhere from 7.5-8.5grs. Ya know they look like rocks. There are about 130 pellets avg in a 1-7/8 oz load, if my memory serves. There are quite a few less pellets than the charts say. I think its b/c they use ruond pellets to give weights and numbers. All the shot I've ever bought has been somewhat oversized. This is another reason 2's might be better than they look on paper.



It would not surprise me at all if 2's would be the ticket. The single B loads Ive used on live coyotes just seems to hit harder than the #4 buck that weighs twice as much. energy levels between the two ( 2's and b's) would not be that different and the potential to "bring the rain" would definately be there adding 30-40 more pellets into the pattern certainly cannot be overlooked.

I know this is going kind of in the other direction than the Dead Coyote T shot, but I think honestly Cat slayer is on to something. We all know that the tungsten alloy pellets are a completely different beast than their lead counterparts, Is Dead Coyote enough for a 50 yard dump- everything Im seeing here leads me to say undoubtedly, but what if the same results, ie dead dog, could be attained thru smaller shot with denser patterns and less recoil?

Right now, Im seriously looking into the 1 1/4 ounce high speed b loads I made saturday, Out of my gun they performed above and beyond what the 1 3/4 ounce loads did at 50 yards. Thats noteworthy right there. Using 2's in that load seems to be a good direction to go. Might just go buy a box of 2's and scavenge the shot and buffer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Hey, any of you guys read the handloaders article about tungsten shot this month? Seems as though a company in china is producing tungsten shot that is consistant in weight, size and roundness. Fiocci is going to be producing shells using this shot. I wonder how big of shot they will have availible?

I just had an elderly Husband and Wife pass away within 24 hours of each other- Im gonna be quite busy for the next few days, will report back when I can, probly by Saturday.
 
Yotenaylor, PM me and I will send you a handfull of wads and Buffer. I really don't have time to work on this until after deer season. We can't hunt Coyotes at the "Good Places" until after waterfowl season over here. I really think 2's will kill one further than lead BB's. There's a sweet spot here. Experimentation will tell if 1's, 2's, or larger actually is the answer.
James
 
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