22 Creedmoor

[alf]

How does the 80 Berger perform on coyotes at 3200-3400fps? I have used the 75ELD-M and it is a decisive. I would assume the 80 Berger is a little thicker jacket and the open tip (non-polymer) opens up a little slower. The G7 for both are pretty close.

I was actually pointing the 80's for a better BC, and they had no issues opening up on coyotes running 3370.

They weren't too hard on fur, but I probably wouldn't pick them if saving hides.

I've shot quite a few with Berger 75 & 80 VLD's out of my 22-204's 300 FPS slower, and they performed great.

 

[Yellowhammer]

 

[Yellowhammer]

 

[c_bass16]

"Flat" is not subjective in any way. A cartridge and bullet combo that has less drop than another cartridge/bullet, over any distance is flatter. The trajectory can easily be measured and there is absolutely no subjectivity at all.

FLAT is absolutely subjective because what you consider FLAT is different than what I think is FLAT. That's the definition of Subjective.
It only becomes OBJECTIVE if you have a single, designated range by which opinion is taken out of the equation and math comes in to play.
There's where you get the conversation of cartridge/bullet A is FLATTER than cartridge/bullet B at X distance.

FLAT is an absolute statement that is so far undefined by anyone in this thread.
FLATTER is a comparison
These are NOT the same thing.

You might have something flatter at 300 but not flatter at 800. That's where velocity and BC coming in to play...so unless you want to put parameters on the discussion...yes it is absolutely subjective. "Flat" at 300 is not the same as "Flat" at 800.

 

[Yellowhammer]

Can you give an example of 2 cartridges using the exact same bullets where one is flatter at 300 and the other is flatter at 800?

 

[BangPop]

FLAT is absolutely subjective because what you consider FLAT is different than what I think is FLAT. That's the definition of Subjective.
It only becomes OBJECTIVE if you have a single, designated range by which opinion is taken out of the equation and math comes in to play.
There's where you get the conversation of cartridge/bullet A is FLATTER than cartridge/bullet B at X distance.

FLAT is an absolute statement that is so far undefined by anyone in this thread.
FLATTER is a comparison
These are NOT the same thing.

You might have something flatter at 300 but not flatter at 800. That's where velocity and BC coming in to play...so unless you want to put parameters on the discussion...yes it is absolutely subjective. "Flat" at 300 is not the same as "Flat" at 800.

I guess I'll be the guy that says what a lot of guys here are thinking. I think you are full of BS.

 

[Keith Stone II]

This has gone from a discussion to an argument and now downright petty nonsense.

This is why I tend to stay off these forums the fun goes away pretty fast.

 

[Hidalgo]

This has gone from a discussion to an argument and now downright petty nonsense.

This is why I tend to stay off these forums the fun goes away pretty fast.

Don't go away ... just ignore the banter.

This reminds me of some of the meetings that I was involved in when I was doing corporate work. Some didn't care about solving the problem ... they preferred to spend hours trying to pick away at a point that had no pertinent bearing on the cause or the outcome and just wouldn't let it go. I usually sat and listened to the pointless crap until I had enough and then stood up and told everyone to STFU and quit arguing about meaningless various little points of the problem and go back to work.

Having this much of a discussion (or argument if you prefer) about the word "FLAT" reminds me of those days. Zero fun.

"I know more than you do so let's see just how far I can kick this over your head" does nothing to impress most people. FWIW.

 

[Strow1]

At 22CM speeds can anyone comment if they have seen any difference in the terminal ballistics between the 75ELD-M, 80ELD-M, or 88ELD-M at similar pressures?

Or how the heavier 75-88gr ELD-M compares to any of the heavier Berger's or TMK's? Exit size? Runners? Consistency of performance?

 

[c_bass16]

Can you give an example of 2 cartridges using the exact same bullets where one is flatter at 300 and the other is flatter at 800?

Using the same bullets has never been questioned and certainly never been argued by me.
This entire line of debate revolves around different cartridges AND different bullets (Different velocity AND bc).

In fact...it started out by (i believe Dultimatpredator) saying "The heavy for caliber projectiles looses all its luster “to me“ because it won’t shoot flat like a 40/50 grain offering"

A 40 to 50gr can absolutely be considered flat but only if you indicate a specific range, and that point has never been substantiated.
A 22-250 with 50 Vmax at 4000 fps is FLATTER at 300 yds than a 22 Creed with 80.5 Fullbore at 3325
But it's not FLATTER at 800.

Now...run the same comparison with a 40gr bullet that has a poor BC and it dies even sooner. There is roughly 2"-4" of variation between the two which is virtually indistinguishable for most shooters in hunting scenarios beyond 400 yds...but that variation is "Advantage 22 Creed" once the two cross trajectory paths at around 650.

Your own graph even makes my point for me.
22-250 and 220 Swift Both Flatter at 200 yds than a 22 Creed
At 400 yds, the 22 Creed catches the 22-250 and at by 600 yds it's already passed the Swift as well.
Flatter at 200 but not at 800.

View attachment 5637

 

[Yellowhammer]

I see where you are coming from now.

I thought it was a given you would compare same bullets weights.

If some one says “the 220 swift is flatter than the 22 creed that is meaning less if they are using different bullets since they are capable of using the same bullets.

Not so much if you say the 220 swift is flatter than the 308. Probably no senario where the 308 is ever flatter than the 220 swift.

The point of posting the chart I did is that the the 22CM is almost the same at 400 and better at 600 than the 22-250 even when there are shooting lighter bullets. Therefore I would say the 22 CM is flatter period.

 

[c_bass16]

I see where you are coming from now.

I thought it was a given you would compare same bullets weights.

Not so much if you say the 220 swift is flatter than the 308. Probably no senario where the 308 is ever flatter than the 220 swift.

AGREE. Would be possible but pretty damn hard. Esentially you'd be looking to figure out how to shoot a 110 Vmax out of a big magnum as fast as possible and that just doesn't make any sense.

The point of posting the chart I did is that the the 22CM is almost the same at 400 and better at 600 than the 22-250 even when there are shooting lighter bullets. Therefore I would say the 22 CM is flatter period.

AGREE

 

[bob123]

seems like everyone has their favorite cartridge and everyone be damned who don't like theirs
the world was flat at one point to remember?

 

[wildflights]

Using the same bullets has never been questioned and certainly never been argued by me.
This entire line of debate revolves around different cartridges AND different bullets (Different velocity AND bc).

In fact...it started out by (i believe Dultimatpredator) saying "The heavy for caliber projectiles looses all its luster “to me“ because it won’t shoot flat like a 40/50 grain offering"

A 40 to 50gr can absolutely be considered flat but only if you indicate a specific range, and that point has never been substantiated.
A 22-250 with 50 Vmax at 4000 fps is FLATTER at 300 yds than a 22 Creed with 80.5 Fullbore at 3325
But it's not FLATTER at 800.

Now...run the same comparison with a 40gr bullet that has a poor BC and it dies even sooner. There is roughly 2"-4" of variation between the two which is virtually indistinguishable for most shooters in hunting scenarios beyond 400 yds...but that variation is "Advantage 22 Creed" once the two cross trajectory paths at around 650.


View attachment 5808View attachment 5807

Your own graph even makes my point for me.
22-250 and 220 Swift Both Flatter at 200 yds than a 22 Creed
At 400 yds, the 22 Creed catches the 22-250 and at by 600 yds it's already passed the Swift as well.
Flatter at 200 but not at 800.

View attachment 5810

I'll take light and fast for 300... Leave the heavy girls for those that need it.

 

[Shotinthedark]

I just finished a 22 Creed Build on a Savage 110 SA ...working up loads for it currently ..
I purchased a Criterion 5R 26" Barrel with a 1-8 twist chambered in 22 250 and was first going to chamber it in 250 AI
I looked around and realized brass for 22 250's has dried up completely ...I managed to buy all 300 pieces of Norma
at Recoil Gunworks....that was all I could find , scouring the web...

Then I thought ...I have a lifetime supply of 308 brass accumulated , why not go with 22 Creed ?? I'm already making all my
6.5 Creed brass from 308 ...so I bought a Finish Reamer from PTG and a .224" bore indicator rod...
I have a Lathe and machine shop ...was gonna ream this criterion barrel...

Sold all my 22 250 brass ....then started to really look at the ballistics of a fast twist 22 250 compared to a 22 Creed and
thought ...the difference isn't worth the hassle to have a caliber burn out a great barrel early ..

I decided to keep the 250 as is and load up my 69 Gr Sierra TMK in it with the 32 lbs of Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR I
just snagged for a song and dance on an estate sale..

I'm not really convinced the 22 Creed is really much better than the old tried and true 250 ....and besides slow is fast
slow is smooth... I have Arkens with the mil tree there to quickly hold over the small (2 mils) I need out to 500 ..without
burnin my barrel out ....3200 fps is fast enough to get it done... I am tempted to order about 500 of those 62 gr ELD VT
Hornady has as well....

As long as it's a consistent and trackable trajectory , I'm not sure 3600 fps is really that needed .

I had to go to gunbroker to scrounge up what 22 250 brass was available last nite

 

[Polock]

Made a great point there. Sit there ranging a varmint. I have a Leupold range finder that I couldn't range a coyote with very far much less a sage rat! Problem is the target stays the same size from the end of the barrel to the critter but appears much smaller way out there and gets hard to hit the target with the range finder. So I've read some people pick a bigger target than the intended target and range it to estimate the range. So, who by eye can tell the difference in 100yds when the starting point is 400 yds off? The problem is not the range finder but the operator. Human eye's just ain't that good. That's why you bought a range finder in the first place!

 

[spotstalkshoot]

Flat ______ horizontally level, lacking rises or depressions, flat as a pancake. There I cleared up all 4 pages. Once a projectile starts dropping 1" every 50' is it still "flat shooting"?

 

[bob123]

remember the world was once flat to fellas
come down from the high road and start shooting those guns instead of you mouths