22 Creedmoor

2x in a row, you failed to indicate what you mean by FLAT. The amount of words it takes you to convey a thought is baffling.
The fact you don't understand how or why a modern optic makes your point moot is very telling, so until you quantify what you actually think you mean by FLAT...your just smashing your keyboard in hopes it makes your fingers tickle.
 
I'd guess that using a 70gr to 80gr bullet's in some kind of 22 CF you'd have to find a new rifle with a fast twist. Think if I really wanted something like that, I'd buy a used rifle and re-barrel. Have had a couple 223 Rem's and 55gr worked well in them. When I had my 223's I think I might have been able to get 60gr bullet but that was as heavy as was out there back then.

Yellowhammer said:
Beside the point but the Ruger American 22-250 is a 10 twist. I only shot the 60 grain vmax
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I have read that some 22 CF's do do pretty well with the 60gr bullet's.

Dultimatpredator said:
..... I even have some Herter .243s that look like hour glass’s in 85 grains.....
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Showing my age here a bit I guess. Those Herter hour glass bullet's were called Wasp Waisted Sonic Bullet's, or simply Wasp waisted! I still have a bunch of Herter bullets but never tried a Wasp Waisted bullet. Tried weighing some Herter bullets years ago and blew my mind the difference in weight between bullet's in the same box. But they were inexpensive and they did work!
 
IMG_2954.jpeg
 
c_bass16 said:
such a misunderstood principle.

"FLAT" is a subjective term most can't or are unwilling to quantify.
Flat at 100 is different than Flat at 300 and both are different than Flat at 600.

It's actually a pretty stupid concept and it's exactly the reason most new cartridges are designed to shoot higher bc bullets with faster twists...because "FLATTER" doesn't mean jack shit in 2024 with modern optics.
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Someone that seems to agree with me! Flat is nothing more than a missed placed term. My 25-06 with a 117gr bullet hit's 3079 FPS at 15yds. dead on at 3" rise and fall if I remember right it was dead on at 265 yds and 3" low at about 75 yds. At 300 yds it was about 9" low. Here's the catch at mid range it was 3" high. That means it not only fell 9" at 300 yds but aalso rose 3" at mid range. So add the two and seems to me it fell 12" total. Farther away you got the more if fell and a some point hold over was required. But you can simply dial in hold over in your scope and hold dead on. The word flat escapes me! Give the flattest shooting cartridge to a good shooter that limits his range to max point blank range and suddenly flat takes on a new meaning! Problem being after MPBR you can no longer normally hold dead on and hit the target, no longer flat when you have to adjust the sight's! For myself I consider flat a cartridge that is zeroed for MPBR to be able to hold dead on at that range without going over the target at mid range or under it a MPBR!
 
c_bass16 said:
2x in a row, you failed to indicate what you mean by FLAT. The amount of words it takes you to convey a thought is baffling.
The fact you don't understand how or why a modern optic makes your point moot is very telling, so until you quantify what you actually think you mean by FLAT...your just smashing your keyboard in hopes it makes your fingers tickle.
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The only thing “baffling” here is your ignorance.

I don’t know what’s more cringe, your thought process and attitude or your grammar. You’re the best kind of person to have this type of conversation with, because nobody has to tell you how stupid you are, you do it all by yourself.

Flat is flat. The only advantage you’ll have shooting at distance with “modern optics” is if you have glass with an integrated LSR, and adjusts your dope for you.

Otherwise, the difference between holding on a coyote at 400 and having to dial on one at 400, there is no comparison.

The difference between misjudging yardage in a rushed situation, and being off by 50-75 yards, there’s no comparison.

I didn’t understand, what you couldn’t see about any of this. The more I read your comments the more it made sense, like I said before, you show your stupidity all by yourself. I’m sure this goes against your big ego and opinion too, which is fine. It’s hard to give advice to someone that already knows everything, but I’ll give it a shot anyway…

How about next time you try to hear someone out, and just have a simple conversation about their opinions and experiences? I know that tiny thing in between your ears, probably doesn’t have the capacity to think someone else can be right too. But it’s worth a shot.
 
Austin Laughlin said:
Otherwise, the difference between holding on a coyote at 400 and having to dial on one at 400, there is no comparison.
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So is this your definition of flat? 400 yds?
Good, now we have a number. So now, what makes it "FLAT"? 1" up or down at any distance between? 2" up or down, 3" up or down?
Same with cartridge and rifle? We talking factory options only? Custom rifle and factory ammo? Factory rifle and custom ammo?
If you're not going to define it, it doesn't mean dick.

As I said before...
"FLAT" is a subjective term most can't or are unwilling to quantify.
Flat at 100 is different than Flat at 300 and both are different than Flat at 600.

Even this thread on the same topic only took about a page before someone chimed in and told (corrected) the group...and then boom, a group of adults put a quantified number on the information they wanted to discuss. Until you do that, it's a fact that the topic is a subjective, unquantifiable circle jerk.

This guy defines FLAT at 500 and 1000 and I'm sure we can both agree...his def of FLAT is not what we are referring to.

Did a google search for "Flattest Cartridge at 400 yds" and the first article that comes up DEFINES HIS CRITERIA in the first damn paragraph.

The point of the 22 Creed, is that you have the OPTION, and ABILITY to shoot heavy for caliber bullets...but that doesn't mean you HAVE TO.
Grab a Swift, Grab a 250 and grab a 22 Creed and load them all with the same bullet
 
c_bass16 said:
So is this your definition of flat? 400 yds?
Good, now we have a number. So now, what makes it "FLAT"? 1" up or down at any distance between? 2" up or down, 3" up or down?
Same with cartridge and rifle? We talking factory options only? Custom rifle and factory ammo? Factory rifle and custom ammo?
If you're not going to define it, it doesn't mean dick.

As I said before...
"FLAT" is a subjective term most can't or are unwilling to quantify.
Flat at 100 is different than Flat at 300 and both are different than Flat at 600.

Even this thread on the same topic only took about a page before someone chimed in and told (corrected) the group...and then boom, a group of adults put a quantified number on the information they wanted to discuss. Until you do that, it's a fact that the topic is a subjective, unquantifiable circle jerk.

This guy defines FLAT at 500 and 1000 and I'm sure we can both agree...his def of FLAT is not what we are referring to.

Did a google search for "Flattest Cartridge at 400 yds" and the first article that comes up DEFINES HIS CRITERIA in the first damn paragraph.

The point of the 22 Creed, is that you have the OPTION, and ABILITY to shoot heavy for caliber bullets...but that doesn't mean you HAVE TO.
Grab a Swift, Grab a 250 and grab a 22 Creed and load them all with the same bullet
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You’re just proving my point. I don’t have to even try here, you’re showing it all by yourself.

It must be a hard life to live, being triggered when someone else’s thought process doesn’t line up with yours. You’d make a great dick-tator.

You keep stating the obvious and acting like you’ve stumbled upon the cure for cancer or something. Yes, The newer development of cartridges are created for the longer, high B.C bullets.

I don’t know what you want here? A cookie? Pat on the back? Figuring this out all on your own?

He stated his opinions on the experiences, that he has had. If it’s worked for him and many others, then please explain how he’s “wrong”. Please, with all of your wonderful wisdom, tell us all how it’s wrong when it works. I can only imagine the wealth of knowledge that’s coming now.

Again, I don’t have to tell you because you already know, that you’re to small minded to see that if there was an exact question asked then there would’ve been an exact answer given. There was no exact, set yardage given, or asked about the performance of an exact bullet at that yardage.

Just because you’re taking a literal standpoint on a term used throughout the hunting and shooting industry, doesn’t make you president.

Following me here? Or do you need me to slow it down snowflake?
 
First off...Not once did I indicate he or you or anyone else was wrong. Simply pointed out that "FLAT" is not an objective fact. It's a subjective opinion and unless you're can give it parameters, its not debatable.
I do see where you're coming from, just another kid that needs speed. I get it. I used to be that way too.
 
c_bass16 said:
First off...Not once did I indicate he or you or anyone else was wrong. Simply pointed out that "FLAT" is not an objective fact. It's a subjective opinion and unless you're can give it parameters, its not debatable.
I do see where you're coming from, just another kid that needs speed. I get it. I used to be that way too.
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“It’s not debatable” because if it doesn’t line up with your line of though, it’s wrong.

Kid? If I’m a kid, then the way you act makes you a toddler.
 
Austin Laughlin said:
“It’s not debatable” because if it doesn’t line up with your line of though, it’s wrong.

Kid? If I’m a kid, then the way you act makes you a toddler.
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it's not debatable because the OP asked about "long range bench setup for sage rats, PD's and rock chucks."
So until someone wants to put a parameter on "Long Range" (and we should all reserve that disclaimer for the OP to decide)...most would consider BEYOND 600, especially for small colony varmints.
You trying to debate what is "FLAT" is not a debate. You don't know what he means by long range, and no one knows what you mean by flat
Yes, you're a kid, a little child that doesn't understand external ballistics.

Your 40gr piss missiles might be flat at 400 yd coyotes, but they aren't flat on 800 yd rock chucks.
THATS why it's not a debate.
 
c_bass16 said:
it's not debatable because the OP asked about "long range bench setup for sage rats, PD's and rock chucks."
So until someone wants to put a parameter on "Long Range" (and we should all reserve that disclaimer for the OP to decide)...most would consider BEYOND 600, especially for small colony varmints.
You trying to debate what is "FLAT" is not a debate. You don't know what he means by long range, and no one knows what you mean by flat
Yes, you're a kid, a little child that doesn't understand external ballistics.

Your 40gr piss missiles might be flat at 400 yd coyotes, but they aren't flat on 800 yd rock chucks.
THATS why it's not a debate.
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Lol yes, clearly it’s me that doesn’t understand.

You just prove my point, over and over again. I’m beginning to wonder how you even get out of bed by yourself in the mornings.. Let alone tie your own shoes.

Your arrogance, while being a complete idiot, is outstanding. Bravo, really.

I’ll take being a “kid” statement. I’d rather be that, over being a big toddler any day of the week.

“Your 40gr missiles may be flat” “But they aren’t flat on 800 yard rock chucks”

Hold the phone. Wait a minute. I thought there was no such thing as flat? Pick one moron 🤣
 
I’m not completely sure what we are arguing here.

Flat is the ballistic of the bullet which is velecity and the weight of the bullet.

The faster the same bullets goes, the “flatter” is is.

Bullet ballistics to not change based on which rifle it is shot from unless barrel length is different which will change the velocity.

If you shot the exact same bullet in fhe 22-250/220 swift/22 CM the 22 CM will be faster therefore flatter.

Why? Same bullet, more case capacity which will push that same bullet faster and therefore get farther down range before gravity starts bringing it down.
 
Yellowhammer said:
Flat is the ballistic of the bullet which is velecity and the weight of the bullet.
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At what range?
A higher bc 60gr bullet, spun in a faster twist, will have a flatter trajectory than another lower bc 60gr bullet in a slower twist.

Yellowhammer said:
The faster the same bullets goes, the “flatter” is is.
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Yes, to a point. There is always a point where a faster bullet gets passed by a slower bullet with a higher BC. Hence "Flatter" is not quantifiable without a distance you're measuring.
That's why others that have written on the subject usually provide 2 distances. Cartridge/Bullet A is flatter than cartridge/bullet B at 500yds, but Not flatter at 1000. etc

Yellowhammer said:
Bullet ballistics to not change based on which rifle it is shot from unless barrel length is different which will change the velocity.
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Yes they absolutely do, proven by Bryan Litz years ago.
Two different rifles with the exact same length, and the exact same velocity, with the exact same bullet will have different external ballistics if they have different twist rate, and if you get down to the nitty gritty details of ELR, even the geometry of the rifling effects the bc of the bullets differently if the twist is the same. Polygonal, vs ratchet, vs traditional effects bc of the bullet because of the deformation of the jacket.
Does this matter at 200 yds with a hunting rifle...no, probably not.

Yellowhammer said:
If you shot the exact same bullet in fhe 22-250/220 swift/22 CM the 22 CM will be faster therefore flatter.
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Yep, but that wasn't ever a question.

Yellowhammer said:
Why? Same bullet, more case capacity which will push that same bullet faster and therefore get farther down range before gravity starts bringing it down.
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Of course.
 
cropdamage said:
This maybe the funniest thing on this whole thread ! I damn near spit my coffee out reading this.
c _bass16 isn't new here. Never met him but, I'm willing to bet he's not the "average joe" shooter.
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That's an understatement lol
It does however point out who probably IS new here.
I don't post much anymore but I'll call a spade a spade when I'm browsing for a giggle.
 
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