The perfect bullet

Byron South

New member
Lately there has been a lot of talk about bullets and 223’s so I thought I would start a thread and offer my opinion and hopefully start a constructive discussion.


How any bullet performs depends on a number of things but mostly its mass, construction, impact velocity along with WHAT it impacts. The V-max as well as other varmint bullets are designed to expand rapidly by using a soft core and thin jacket. At high velocity this rapid expansion can cause the bullet to come apart into lots of tiny pieces (not explode). This fragile design coupled with short light (light for caliber) bullets pushed at high velocities can and do result in poor penetration at times. Sometimes it even happens so rapidly that the bullet disintegrates to such a point its mass is spread over a large area resulting in what we call a surface splash. This usually occurs when these light, fast, short, fragile bullets strike bone.

Food for thought.

Keep in mind a .22 caliber 40 grain V-max at 3600fps or faster performs quiet differently than .22 caliber 60 grain V-Max bullet at 3000 fps. I’ve used lots of different bullets over the years and the 60 V-Max at 223 velocities flat out works and works well. In my business of filming the last thing I want is runners, splashes, or wounded coyotes. I like them DRT. I have used bullets of tougher construction and in heavier weights but keep coming back to the 60 grain V-Max. The heavier (69-77s) bullets don’t seem to create the hydrostatic shock the faster 60s do and the lighter bullets just don’t have the punch nor do they penetrate as reliably as the 60s do.

Now before anyone gets upset, I didn’t say you can’t kill 100 coyotes in a row with the 40s, 45s and 50s out of your 223s. What I’m saying is you will get more reliable penetration with the somewhat heavier, longer 60 grain bullets. Shooting these slightly heavier bullets also slows it down enough you don’t often get nasty exits or splashes thus making them about as fur friendly and deadly as any round I have ever used. Keep I mind I shoot coyotes at typical calling ranges (20-150 yards or so). You guys that like the lighter bullets might also be surprised to find out these heavier bullets shoot dang near as flat as the lighter bullets. Although they start slower, they maintain their velocity as well as their thump much better than the shorter lighter bullets as ranges get on the longish side. They simply don’t run out steam as fast thus creating a wider range in which they will perform as designed.

I will also go on to say I don’t care for any light for caliber bullets, regardless of construction, in any caliber. Some of the worst wounds on coyotes I’ve ever seen were with 250’ shooting light bullets. The worst splash wounds I ever saw were created by a 243 shooting 55 grain bullets. If shoulders were hit, this load would make a mess. In contrast I’ve seen plenty shot with 80-100 grain game bullets out of 243s and 6mms with minimal fur damage.

Merry Christmas, Good Hunting,

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Thanks for the info Byron! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Hard to argue with your experience, and your videos definitely show the effectiveness of the 60gr bullets.
 
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or you could just get a 17 rem and not worry about all that stuff.


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif As my son says... "Ohhhh SNAP!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That right there is funny, I don't care who you are... even a whiley Cajun!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Good info for sure. I actually wanted a 17 Rem, but had immense trouble finding one to buy in person. Based on that, I opted to give the 204 Ruger a try. I'll be sure to post reults and give my impressions of the 204, during the course of the winter. I won't get out to hunt Yotes until Feb, but I'm excited to see what it can do within reasonable ranges, on the our husky dawgs in PA.
 
Good info, and you said something I try to get across all the time. This is the fact these softer (or hollow point) bullets do NOT explode! They simply come apart into pieces hopefully to take out the vitals quicker (a quick humane kill) and hardly ever leave an exit hole leaving the hide in great shape.

Thanks for the posting, it's a good one.
 
Byron
Very nice summary. We can certainly attest to what you are saying from the filming side of the business. The CoyoteDoctors shoot 250's and 55 gr. Vmax and we just couldn't be more impressed with the performance whether its at close range or those longer shots. When you see a coyote tip over at 360 yards without a twitch like in Overdose, its obvious the bullet performs at long ranges.
One thing to remember is how tough those coyotes are and how strong the will to live is. Even a perfect chest shot coyote can run 20 yards and make it look like a miss. Then you pick it up and the heart/lung area is jello.
One thing that you didn't mention that i would add regarding those heavier bullets is their abilities to cut through the wind a little better. I know that's not as important to you down there in nirvana (texas) but up here in Dakota, we have to contend with some stiff breezes on occasion and its nice to have a little less wind drift. Looking forward to seeing you up this way in Jan.
Doc
 
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I will also go on to say I don’t care for any light for caliber bullets, regardless of construction, in any caliber.



Byron thats a good point.

In the 223 I also favor 60 grainers, but a plain old 60 grain flat based Hornady SP. Pretty much ended the runners and spinning dogs I was getting with the 40 and 50 grain Vmaxes.

But the most "perfect bullet" I've ever used on coyotes is the 85 grain Sierra BTHP Gameking when handloaded in a 243 Win. I load them at very modest velocities (2900 fps), and it is a sure bang flopper with little carnage.

Best balance of sheer stopping power, without large exits I've ever used.
 
Good post Byron great info.

RagnCajn you trying to stir Byron up shame on you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
ROFL,he deserves it. First time I ever met Byron was on a hunting trip with a mututal friend. Byron filming and me shooting. I hit a coyote with the 17 and it splashed big time, on film no less. It was ugly. He has never let me live it down. I owed him one.


on edit. If ya got time to waste. go spend some time reading this thread. This is the thread that byron posted after our first hunt.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...=1#Post52102039
 
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I know that's not as important to you down there in nirvana (texas) but up here in Dakota, we have to contend with some stiff breezes on occasion and its nice to have a little less wind drift. Looking forward to seeing you up this way in Jan.




Gets pretty windy here in nirvana too, especialy in the Panhandle of nirvana. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Lookin forward to seeing you guys again in January.

Sleddog,

I like those Horndy 60 sp as well. If you want a bullet that is a little tougher than the V-Maxs that bullet is a great choice. When I first went up to shooting the 60's that was the bullet I shot. I certainly penetrates further but generally doesn't make a big exit when it does exit. I however swithed to the V-Maxs because the plastic tip does better in my AR mags and quiet frankly I believe I get fewer spinners and runners.

Randy,

I vividly remember the only coyote I witnessed you shoot with your 17. Can you refresh the members memory as to what happend on that day /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif? If you will asked Rod he ca tell you that I predicted the outcome of that shot several hours before it happend. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I sat a few stands with another huge advocats of the 17 that same year. We called in one coyote that day and the fur friendly little 17 splashed on his little shoulder. The coyote spun twice and hauled butt. He didn't go far however because he rapidly bled out of the massive splash wound on his near side shoulder. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Fur friendly? Oh yeah I remember he hit shoulder bone. 25 grains of lead dust doen't penatrate very well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

I don't want to turn this into a 17 vs 223 thread. I also don't want to debate the effectiveness of the 17. This caliber as well as a few other sub calibers have a devout following. The biggest proponants of these subcalibers beat the fur friendly drum and will jump at the chance to deffend it as fur friendly and in almost the same sentence tell you how you MUST avoid bone or it can splash, and fail to make a clean kill. My answer to this, if fur is what your after, is to try a 223 shooting a 60 v-max and compare the results. I've seen hundreds of coyotes, bobcats and even a few fox shot with this load an it is generally very fur friendly and will certaily get to the goody even when bone is hit without causing ots of damage (except for on the INSIDE of the coyote). In fact I try to put my shots on the shoulder. Not only should you NOT do this with a 17 but you should strive not to.
Let the flames begin just remember its Christmas ad keep it nice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The 223 is't sexy, it ain't fast(by todays standards), and admittedly it is a little borring, but it works.

Good Huting and Merry Christmas.

Byron
 
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The 223 isn't sexy, it ain't fast(by todays standards), and admittedly it is a little boring, but it works.
Byron



That's why I got a .223......My wife takes care of those things....she's sexy, sleek, and DEFINITELY ain't boring /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

(and she's looking over my shoulder right now...) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Dang Randy

Throw a little gas on the fire will ya?

If you love your 17's, thats great. My experiences with them hasn't been as good as others. It seems they get stage fright and fall to pieces when I'm around.

You can kill 100 coyotes in a row with it but when I show up it will cause either a wounded coyote ot to be recovered, or a horrific splash. Happens when m around well over half the time. I guess I'm just jinxed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Byron
 
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I like those Horndy 60 sp as well. If you want a bullet that is a little tougher than the V-Maxs that bullet is a great choice. When I first went up to shooting the 60's that was the bullet I shot. I certainly penetrates further but generally doesn't make a big exit when it does exit. I however swithed to the V-Maxs because the plastic tip does better in my AR mags and quiet frankly I believe I get fewer spinners and runners.




Byron - I have shot the 40 and 50 grain Vmax with very mixed results. Never tried the 60 grain Vmax though, but makes sense at slower velocities with the added weight it would work well. When I was out Xmas shopping, I had to pass the gun store. Surprisingly they had the 60 grain Vmaxes, and I bought a box. I'll load them up, and try for a few shots after New Years.

I'll keep ya posted. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Merry Christmas, Sleddogg
 
I have become somewhat of a Berger bullet fan and have been using the 52.grain with mixed results. Now Byron has me thinking I want to try the 60 gr. Berger and the 60 Vmax both. Anyone tryed the 60gr Berger on critters cause I know they will be accurate.
 
If you want a comparison,compare the .223 60 grain Vmax to the .204 Ruger 45 grain Hornady SP.The .204 has less bullet drop(almost by 2 inches at 300 yards),Less windrift(almost by 1 inch at 300 yards),faster velocity(by 300 feet per second at 300 yards),and almost as much energy(less than 50 lbs at 300 yards)and that with a little ol' 45 grain bullet.That's 25% less bullet.Good Hunting Chad
 
Bryon,
Are you shooting these 60s through a bushmaster predator barrel? Also I can't seem to find the 60 vmax listed on hornady's website, am I missing it somewhere?
Thanks
 
I will go with Sleddog on the 85 for the 243 in sierra bullets, it is deffinately a stopper, also very good on paper at 100 ave. .75 for 5, and for me that is awsome. In the 223, I have a Savage 10, seems to favor the Sierra 52g hpbt out to 100. I have not been concerned with the fur and this bullet does not always exit. I have went to the "Dark Side" with a Bushmaster Predator, 1:8 twist, good for up to ? bullets. I will work on + 69 for the song dogs, and try to get out to 600 on paper.
Jim
 
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