Run off with the 223

Originally Posted By: BOWLSEYEI had not shot a coyote with a 223 for a couple of years until this morning. I have been switching up between the 25-06, 22-250 and 243. Kind of been following these threads on the 223 and run off or bullet selections so I thought I would give a try today.

For what its worth and having shot multiple coyotes with 204, 223, 22-250, 243, 25-06 and 270s in different weights and brands of bullets, the 223 seems to have had the spinners and runners before they drop dead.

This morning I shot a big male with a 22" barrelled 223 I just traded for. I had worked up some handloads with 55 Nosler Ballistic tips. It was only a 130 yd shot and he spun into the ground. Tuesday I shot one at 128 yds with a 20" barrelled 243 using 58 grain V-max Superformance in the same body spot. You couldn't see where the 223 went in but the 243 you could put a pack of cigarettes and lighter in the wound. Same 243 and box of ammo produced less devastating damage on body and face shots on other coyotes this season.

My analysis is that the same bullets from the same box on different animals will have different results as in the case of the 243 or 25-06 vmax's. I don't think some varmint bullets always react the same on impact.

As far as the 223 I think the 55 BT were harder and expanded differently than when I use them in my 22-250. The 50 and 55 Vmax's I have used in the 223 in the past was hard to see the entry and no exit showing. Liking to see a coyote drop in its tracks I have thought about trying the 53 or 60 grain Vmax, or a soft point or hollow point or maybe something in a Speer or Sierra that makes a small entry and turns the insides to jello, for a quicker kill. I think there is surely a bullet that would give similar results as the 22-250 at shorter distances and 223 velocity.

All of the points about marksmanship, shot choice, nerves, actual shot impact point and animal toughness are big factors that need to be factored in when the crosshairs are on target and the trigger is being pulled.

I never hear anyone talk about animal movement between the time the trigger is pulled and bullet impact on a stopped coyote. Honestly I think there is animal movement in that time frame that can show up in the point of impact when you inspect the animal. I know my bench target shooting accuracy and point of impact is not the same as shooting in the field so I work to narrow that gap through different ways of practice.

If anyone has a suggestion on a 223 bullet selection for planting a coyote in its tracks out to 250 yards, I am all ears.

I've shot them with 40,45,50,52,53 and 55 grain bullets out of a .223 of several different makes and models. The longest track record I've seen for shot to kill ratio and fur friendliest on top of that is the Sierra Varminter 60gr. HP. My brother has shot that bullet for years and it puts coyotes down hard. I've always had good luck with the Hornady 52gr. BTHP,55gr. Blitzking and 55gr. Softpoint.
 
I’ve had very good results with the .223, even with less than optimal hits.
I’m also not on the heavy,slow moving and short barrel band wagon. I’m shooting a Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a 24” barrel at 3,400fps, and have shot coyotes from 20yds to 300yds and have not had a single runner. I have had a spinner but most dropped in their tracks.

I’ve also noticed a difference between the BT and the VMax of the same grain as far as instantaneous kills and the BT gets the nod from me out of the .223. I don’t proclaim either to be ultra fur friendly but the BT seems to anchor better then the VMax. In my .250 I shoot a 50gr VMax and I see no difference out to 300yds.

I do believe bullet type will make a difference, along with velocity but I believe the point of impact trumps all when using a .223.
 
This post just blows my mind with all the coyotes that I have killed with 223's.

I shot Rem 788's and Rem 700's.

55g Sierra blitz lead tip from 3050-3400 massacres coyotes, literally. Very accurate bullet using Benchmark with around 24.5g in an AR, more in a bolt action.

Bullet choice trumphs all.

All I can say is that you will just have to experience the real world, not internet key board experts.

I shot the 55g Sierra blitz lead tip as low as 2950 in a short barrel Rem 788 with amazing results to 200 yards.

In a COLT- CAR, with 55g Sierra BTHp at 2800, I just killed [beeep] out of coyotes.

A screwed up shot is a screwed up shot, hit them again, put them on the truck or cut their tails off and move on. Don't waste a lot of time on a run off, part of hunting, go get another one.
 
This post blows my mind with how many are happy with the 223. Not desputing it's effectiveness for the users, just surprised.

I always figured the reason ARs are such high capacity was to try make up for the lack of power! I don't deny that shot placement and bullet selection is key. In my experience things rarely go as planned while hunting so I plan to use more gun.

That said some of the best hunters I know shoot a smaller caliber/gauge than I'd ever pick!
 
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Originally Posted By: P&YThis post blows my mind with how many are happy with the 223. Not desputing it's effectiveness for the users, just surprised.

I always figured the reason ARs are such high capacity was to try make up for the lack of power! I don't deny that shot placement and bullet selection is key. In my experience things rarely go as planned while hunting so I plan to use more gun.

That said some of the best hunters I know shoot a smaller caliber/gauge than I'd ever pick!
I mostly use bolt guns in .223 although I do like a higher magazine capacity for hogs and such it's not a big deal not to have one while huntin coyotes. To me anyway. There has been a time or two on fast runners that I was glad I had an AR but the majority of the time I get along just fine with a bolt gun. One thing I really like about the .223 is being able to see the hits in the scope which means quicker follow up shots if I need to make one. If a coyote is facing me or broadside that doesn't come into play very often. Coyotes running straight away from me it does more times than not. I haven't found a bullet in .223 that is a sure stopper on a shot like that unless I hit the coyote in the back of the head. The same can be said about the 22-250 though too in my experience. The first organ that bullet meets at that angle definitely ain't the heart.

If you're wanting the bullet to go in one end of a coyote and out the other or even 3/4 of the way through,using a light weight,fast moving .22 caliber bullet ain't a consistent way to accomplish that. That's just my personal opinion.

As stated many times shot placement is crucial. But people are stuck on bullets that ain't built to blow through bones and whatnot and still they expect them to. They're probably better off shooting a heavier grain bullet that is supposed to expand instead of shedding most of its weight when it connects with a shoulder or hip. V-Max's will work. I've killed tons of critters with them but they're not the best option out there for coyotes. I'd take a good hollowpoint or softpoint any day of the week over a v-max.
 
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STOP,STOP,STOP. First off a coyote is not some super animal that cant be killed unless you have a 50 cal that has a banana clip with tac equipment mounted all over it or a sniper rifle that can shoot 2500yds with bullet grenades. However these guns would be awesome.

If you want to kill every coyote with one shot. If you want DRT. Listen to me. I can help you seriously. I have killed coyotes using rifles 22 rimfires to 243.

I will help anyone that wants to help themselves. However, there is a trade off. The trade off is this. You might not be able to kill 6 coyotes that come running in at the same time, you may not be able to shoot close and long range with the same weapon and bullet and save fur, you may not be able to shoot in high wind.
 
Originally Posted By: yoteantidoteI’ve had very good results with the .223, even with less than optimal hits.
I’m also not on the heavy,slow moving and short barrel band wagon. I’m shooting a Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a 24” barrel at 3,400fps, and have shot coyotes from 20yds to 300yds and have not had a single runner. I have had a spinner but most dropped in their tracks.

You hit the nail on the head with short barreled slow shooting rifles. My hunting partner shoots a 24" barrel (plus suppresor) and he is breaking the 3400fps mark and I've seen maybe 2 spinners out of over 80 coyotes this past winter.

On the other hand I watched a couple hours of the Lucky Duck guys lastnight on YouTube and they were shooting what looked to be 16" or even shorter (barrels inside the handguards) 223s and every single coyote they shot ran off to die. They were shooting the exact same 53gr superformance that my partner shoots.
 
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60 grain vmax! I shoot them out of my 14.5” POF and 20” LTR. Drops coyotes like the hammer of Thor for me with a broadside shot placement right behind the shoulder or direct chest shot. I just haven’t taken a dog over 200 yards with it yet. No need, I call them in within arms reach at times and don’t take 400 yard running shots spraying and praying I’ll connect somewhere on the yote. If your not going to be a hunter and wait for a perfect shot and are a crappy shot by all means get a bigger gun. I own a 243 and love it as well. Close counts and It doesn’t matter where I hit it. I can tag a yote in the tailpipe on a run at 600 yards with a 70 grain ballistic tip and blow half its ars off.lol What I have seen and witnessed over the years is the guys who get runners get runners no matter what caliber they use and 99.9% its due to POOR SHOT PLACEMENT. They will never admit it and defend themselves till the day they die because everyone thinks they are the best shot in the world and we are all marine snipers.lol. This thread can and will go on for ever with those shooters. You just have to read through the BS. I have found first hand that runners are going to happen no matter what bullet or caliber you use with. It just happens once in blue moon...even with a large caliber and a perfect shot placement. Not often , but it just happens. If it’s consistent your not hitting them in the right place or with the right bullet. I shot a coyote at 30 yards you could clap you hands in the hole and it spun three times till I nailed it again. It was a broadside through the lungs. It was nasty! You could stick a coffee can in the hole! Some dogs just have a few seconds of life left in them. I only had one other runner with a 243. I zipped it open at the bottom of the heart at about 380 yards. I misjudged the distance and hit it a little low. I hit it at an angle and out popped it’s intestines while it was running, I had to walk up and finish it off after it ran about 500 yards in the open and layer under a bush. Third coyote I ever shot back in the day and I remember it like yesterday. The spinner I shot the next day...it was my first double. I shot its mate seconds earlier and DRT’d and never blew up the pelt with the same shot placement.

I don’t believe it’s a barrel length thing. It’s a lack of knowledge not knowing the velocity issue with using FACTORY loaded ammo. I reload and soot through a chrony. I loaded my 14.5” POF at 2850 FPS and LTR at 2950 FPS. To DRT to save fur and drop them in their tracks. These are far from max loads. I’m sure loaded hotter, near max will only help thr DRT factor with the 60 grain vmax. If you use this bullet and get a runner you either hit it too far back or shot waaaay too far. I’ve only had one runner with this bullet so far. I skinned the top of a coyote and ripped a hole in its back.i blamed the bullet and caliber for the day till I went back and drove by where I shot it the next morning. As I drove by it jumped up out of the wash I shot it in and trotted away in plain sight with a chunk out of its back....and I swore I hit it in the vitals....NOPE my fault, my crappy shot placement, NOT the 223 or billets fault....SHOCKING!

 
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Originally Posted By: Fur TakerIf you want to kill every coyote with one shot. If you want DRT. Listen to me. I can help you seriously. I have killed coyotes using rifles 22 rimfires to 243.



gee whiz. lets hear it. lol
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: Fur TakerIf you want to kill every coyote with one shot. If you want DRT. Listen to me. I can help you seriously. I have killed coyotes using rifles 22 rimfires to 243.



gee whiz. lets hear it. lol

I'd like to know too. I lose at least a few every Winter. I wouldn't mind killing every coyote I shoot on the spot every single time.
 

The bullet and shot placement.

Lets say you shot one, and you double lung him. You know this because you recovered him and you can see the hole going in and the hole coming out.

Well that's a problem right there. A round that pass completely thru an animal may leave great blood travels, in fact it should because you will have more runners when this happens. When that bullet passes thru him, energy is lost. What you want is a bullet to enter only into the chest cavity and violently expand and expend all its energy. Now here's the thing you may not hit bone on entry, right.
The bullet lets say went between ribs on entry, well some of the polymer tip bullets rely on hitting something hard, like bone to expand the bullet. So I guess that bullet is going out the other side. Full metal jacket, soft points, pointed soft points, right out. Hollow point, Jacketed Hollow points are your best bet. But if its too heavy it will still blow thru.

Which has a more of a devastating effect? A bullet that pass thru an animal or a bullet that basically explodes inside?

So for myself and the calibers I shoot. I took a variety of rounds both factory and reloads. I shot them at a variety of targets. Obviously, I could adjust my reloads.

I wanted a round to penetrate very little. I'm not trying to break hips and blow up thru guts to get into the chest cavity. Jackets have to be thin. After all how much penetration do you really need.

So because there are so many calibers, my advice would be to take your rifle, Take a really good look at the bullets they offer and the bullet construction. Find one that offers very little penetration. Test it on material that would be close to that of a coyote and see what kind of penetration you get. If the bullet come apart very well, but still blows completely thru, can you reload it if so, try increasing velocity or try slowing it down.


Your test should be done at ranges that you normally shoot at coyotes.
 
Originally Posted By: Fur Taker
The bullet and shot placement.

Lets say you shot one, and you double lung him. You know this because you recovered him and you can see the hole going in and the hole coming out.

Well that's a problem right there. A round that pass completely thru an animal may leave great blood travels, in fact it should because you will have more runners when this happens. When that bullet passes thru him, energy is lost. What you want is a bullet to enter only into the chest cavity and violently expand and expend all its energy. Now here's the thing you may not hit bone on entry, right.
The bullet lets say went between ribs on entry, well some of the polymer tip bullets rely on hitting something hard, like bone to expand the bullet. So I guess that bullet is going out the other side. Full metal jacket, soft points, pointed soft points, right out. Hollow point, Jacketed Hollow points are your best bet. But if its too heavy it will still blow thru.

Which has a more of a devastating effect? A bullet that pass thru an animal or a bullet that basically explodes inside?

So for myself and the calibers I shoot. I took a variety of rounds both factory and reloads. I shot them at a variety of targets. Obviously, I could adjust my reloads.

I wanted a round to penetrate very little. I'm not trying to break hips and blow up thru guts to get into the chest cavity. Jackets have to be thin. After all how much penetration do you really need.

So because there are so many calibers, my advice would be to take your rifle, Take a really good look at the bullets they offer and the bullet construction. Find one that offers very little penetration. Test it on material that would be close to that of a coyote and see what kind of penetration you get. If the bullet come apart very well, but still blows completely thru, can you reload it if so, try increasing velocity or try slowing it down.


Your test should be done at ranges that you normally shoot at coyotes.


You just described the reasons why I'd rather shoot a heavily constructed bullet that isn't going to shed all of its weight when you hit bone causing a surface splash. Which can happen with any thin jacketed bullet. I've seen it happen with v-max,hollowpoints and for the first time this season a softpoint. I want to punch a hole through both shoulders on a broadside shot. If it just breaks one shoulder and still kills that's even better. With a shot behind the shoulder I've seen more pass throughs than not no matter what type of bullet I was shooting. I've also seen more coyotes run a short distance with that shot placement. Can't say I've ever lost one after shooting it through the lungs though.

While lots of guys might not shoot at a running coyote because it's not a "perfect" shot I most definitely will. Which is one reason I'd rather have a bullet that will penetrate further and kill the animal I'm shooting or at least immobilize it long enough to shoot it in the head or chest with a follow up shot.
 
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Amazing to me that a thread about shot placement and bullet performance out of a 223 can go 5 pages. How many times does it need to be said?

For those of you that do not save hides, use your 300 ultramag and be done with it. For those of you that do save hides, your experience will tell you what works.

Personally I like my 17-223, out of about 50 coyotes with that rifle now, I have not lost one. And the fur buyer doesn't complain about holes. I guess someone should let the coyotes know that I'm only shooting a 25gr bullet.
 
I think it's a pretty good thread to see what works at different speeds and distances for others out of different length barrels. For as many coyotes I have shot with other calibers, I just haven't hunted that much with the 223. I got hooked on the fast and flat because it works so good for but started having fun shooting the 223. For me it has always killed in the past, just not quick and if there is better bullets I can use than the 40, 50,55 Vmax and 55 NBTs I have used I appreciate hearing others advice and experience.

Thanks
 
The thread should have been titled runs offs with a 223 because of bad shot placement and poor puller choice. With correct shot placement and correct bullet choices there would be no thread here to reply to.
 
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Originally Posted By: DultimatpredatorThe thread should have been titled runs offs with a 223 because of bad shot placement and poor puller choice. With correct shot placement and correct bullet choices there would be no thread here to reply to.

Agreed.

Often the guys proclaiming one bullet works or doesn't have such a small sample size as to be statistically meaningless. For those of you in Rio Linda, that means that a handful of coyotes with one bullet doesn't mean much.
 
Shot these last week. Factory Hornady 40 gr. VMax 223
Savage 12 FV

No way am I trying to advocate 223 is a good coyote round. I don't care what anyone else shoots, nor am I looking for any opinions on the matter.

 
Originally Posted By: Infidel 762Shot these last week. Factory Hornady 40 gr. VMax 223
Savage 12 FV

No way am I trying to advocate 223 is a good coyote round. I don't care what anyone else shoots, nor am I looking for any opinions on the matter.



Your post proves that it CAN be a good coyote cartridge. However.......your 12fv is sporting 12" more pipe than most of the rifles that spurred this conversation. Lol. By the way.........Loooooooove the 12fv! Couldn't help myself at $220 a piece, and bought 4 of them! Lol
 
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