NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...
- Thread starter GC
- Start date
hunt0168
Well-known member
Hi all, I have read through this thread since it’s inception and referred back to it numerous times. I figured I should finally contribute to keep things at least crawling along!
What I have found over a bunch of years of pattern testing for predator shotguns is very much in line with what most of the experienced shotgunners have laid out in this thread. You had better do some pattern testing, and be prepared to do some more… and some more… and some more with different combinations of loads, chokes, barrel lengths and maybe even some soul selling to find something that works! Lol… I’m not ashamed to say that I have been envious as [beeep] at some of the patterns I’ve seen in this thread. I truly hope that some of them were repeatable, consistent patterns as every once in awhile a horrible combination will make you think you’ve arrived! Here's my story….
I started calling predators around 2000 or so and got hooked hard. My earliest setup was pretty much for fox only and it was my 870 short barrel turkey gun with a red dot. I was running a modified choke and steel T waterfowl loads and they would crush fox all day long! Well, all night long I should say. After calling in my first coyote (never got a shot off btw) I became obsessed with calling for them. The fellow that introduced me to this addiction respectfully warned me that my loads were not ideal and I needed to move up to something with a bit more punch. And that’s when all of the fun started! “Fun” can be extremely frustrating as I found out!
I’ve always shot Remington shotguns. Local pride I guess as I’m only about 15 minutes from the Ilion NY plant. BTW, Remington is a mere shadow of it’s former self in my opinion, and doubt I would buy the current production they’re turning out? I digress… I bought some 3” Remington 4 buck loads and grabbed my limited supply of chokes and hit the patterning board. After about 20 rounds and 4 chokes worth of disappointment I figured that Remington must have screwed up that lot of 4 buck! I was lucky to get more than a few pellets on a 24”x24” square paper at 40 yards with any of the combinations. I purchased different loads and the copper plated federals were better but not what I would call great. At the time I was told don’t go tighter than Modified with buckshot. Well I knew from testing that Full was slightly better, but again, not great. It took me quite awhile to convince myself that extra full was worth trying. I’d been told I’d bulge barrels and blow chokes by about half of the people that I talked to. The other half didnt have much input other than “try it and see what happens!” I think it was on ebay that I bought a factory Remington Extra Full extended tube. I think it was around a .690” but not sure exactly? I had a .665” at the time but figured that was far too tight for buckshot. Well the extra full was awful! Worse than the full. I felt defeated and dug into the research a bit and read where guys were using copper plated BB. So I bought some Federal WingShok 3” BB loads and hit the patterning boards again. Better by quite a bit through that EF choke and that became my load for some time. Not the best, but it would work out to 35 yards or so.
Dead Coyote comes on the scene! I saw the ads. I read the hype… 70 yard kills etc. I had to try it. I did try it but it was a bit bittersweet. It was definitely better than any 4 buck I’d tried but 70 yards wasn’t ever a thought. But why? It must be that I needed the Dead Coyote Choke! So I got one and while slightly better than my flush Full choke that was rated for steel shot, it wasn’t very consistent. More reading and I determined that I needed my forcing cone lengthened. That didn’t help with predators but it did help a little with turkey loads so not a complete waste I guess?
So now I have this super hyped up combination of choke tube and load and a slightly modified barrel and still a 35-40 yard marginal pattern. What now? Lets try a different gun of course. I’ve got a couple 1187’s lying around. Nope.. no better. Let me get a different choke. Lets go back to copper plated 4 buck loads, how about a different barrel? I became obsessed with winning this fight guys! I made some small improvements over time and realized I could at least save a ton of money shooting lead over the DC because I had gotten to a point of close performance.
I’ve at this point settled into the fact that 50 yards is my max and under that is very much preferred. After trying about every choke manufacturer out there in constrictions from .665” up, a few different guns and every available load known to man I have settled on an 1187 with a .670” Pure Gold choke from a 21” barrel with lengthened forcing cone. The absolute best patterns are with Winchester Varmint-X Lead BB loads but it also shoots acceptable 40 yard patterns with 2-3/4” Winchester 4 buck 27 pellet loads.
Same choke and loads work as well in my 870 Turkey gun with 21” barrel
Some other findings along the way… I found that as barrel lengths got longer I achieved better patterns with a more open choke. Jeb’s .680” High Voltage waterfowl choke from my 1187’s and 4 buck in both 26” and 28” barrels performed much better than from the shorter barrels. A .685” XXFull Comp N Choke also performed well with 4 buck from the longer barrels. Another note… I found the shorter barrels did better with the 27 pellet 2-3/4” loads, where the longer barrels did better with the heavier 3” 41 pellet loads. The longer barrels seemed more forgiving of payload as well. Just my findings. Your mileage may vary? [beeep], I’m sure it will vary!… we’re talking predator shotguns here! Lol…
So after all of this… Pattern your guns guys! It's a must. I wrote a lot because nobody else has been! Lol… but I hope something in these ramblings helps somebody out there.
What I have found over a bunch of years of pattern testing for predator shotguns is very much in line with what most of the experienced shotgunners have laid out in this thread. You had better do some pattern testing, and be prepared to do some more… and some more… and some more with different combinations of loads, chokes, barrel lengths and maybe even some soul selling to find something that works! Lol… I’m not ashamed to say that I have been envious as [beeep] at some of the patterns I’ve seen in this thread. I truly hope that some of them were repeatable, consistent patterns as every once in awhile a horrible combination will make you think you’ve arrived! Here's my story….
I started calling predators around 2000 or so and got hooked hard. My earliest setup was pretty much for fox only and it was my 870 short barrel turkey gun with a red dot. I was running a modified choke and steel T waterfowl loads and they would crush fox all day long! Well, all night long I should say. After calling in my first coyote (never got a shot off btw) I became obsessed with calling for them. The fellow that introduced me to this addiction respectfully warned me that my loads were not ideal and I needed to move up to something with a bit more punch. And that’s when all of the fun started! “Fun” can be extremely frustrating as I found out!
I’ve always shot Remington shotguns. Local pride I guess as I’m only about 15 minutes from the Ilion NY plant. BTW, Remington is a mere shadow of it’s former self in my opinion, and doubt I would buy the current production they’re turning out? I digress… I bought some 3” Remington 4 buck loads and grabbed my limited supply of chokes and hit the patterning board. After about 20 rounds and 4 chokes worth of disappointment I figured that Remington must have screwed up that lot of 4 buck! I was lucky to get more than a few pellets on a 24”x24” square paper at 40 yards with any of the combinations. I purchased different loads and the copper plated federals were better but not what I would call great. At the time I was told don’t go tighter than Modified with buckshot. Well I knew from testing that Full was slightly better, but again, not great. It took me quite awhile to convince myself that extra full was worth trying. I’d been told I’d bulge barrels and blow chokes by about half of the people that I talked to. The other half didnt have much input other than “try it and see what happens!” I think it was on ebay that I bought a factory Remington Extra Full extended tube. I think it was around a .690” but not sure exactly? I had a .665” at the time but figured that was far too tight for buckshot. Well the extra full was awful! Worse than the full. I felt defeated and dug into the research a bit and read where guys were using copper plated BB. So I bought some Federal WingShok 3” BB loads and hit the patterning boards again. Better by quite a bit through that EF choke and that became my load for some time. Not the best, but it would work out to 35 yards or so.
Dead Coyote comes on the scene! I saw the ads. I read the hype… 70 yard kills etc. I had to try it. I did try it but it was a bit bittersweet. It was definitely better than any 4 buck I’d tried but 70 yards wasn’t ever a thought. But why? It must be that I needed the Dead Coyote Choke! So I got one and while slightly better than my flush Full choke that was rated for steel shot, it wasn’t very consistent. More reading and I determined that I needed my forcing cone lengthened. That didn’t help with predators but it did help a little with turkey loads so not a complete waste I guess?
So now I have this super hyped up combination of choke tube and load and a slightly modified barrel and still a 35-40 yard marginal pattern. What now? Lets try a different gun of course. I’ve got a couple 1187’s lying around. Nope.. no better. Let me get a different choke. Lets go back to copper plated 4 buck loads, how about a different barrel? I became obsessed with winning this fight guys! I made some small improvements over time and realized I could at least save a ton of money shooting lead over the DC because I had gotten to a point of close performance.
I’ve at this point settled into the fact that 50 yards is my max and under that is very much preferred. After trying about every choke manufacturer out there in constrictions from .665” up, a few different guns and every available load known to man I have settled on an 1187 with a .670” Pure Gold choke from a 21” barrel with lengthened forcing cone. The absolute best patterns are with Winchester Varmint-X Lead BB loads but it also shoots acceptable 40 yard patterns with 2-3/4” Winchester 4 buck 27 pellet loads.
Same choke and loads work as well in my 870 Turkey gun with 21” barrel
Some other findings along the way… I found that as barrel lengths got longer I achieved better patterns with a more open choke. Jeb’s .680” High Voltage waterfowl choke from my 1187’s and 4 buck in both 26” and 28” barrels performed much better than from the shorter barrels. A .685” XXFull Comp N Choke also performed well with 4 buck from the longer barrels. Another note… I found the shorter barrels did better with the 27 pellet 2-3/4” loads, where the longer barrels did better with the heavier 3” 41 pellet loads. The longer barrels seemed more forgiving of payload as well. Just my findings. Your mileage may vary? [beeep], I’m sure it will vary!… we’re talking predator shotguns here! Lol…
So after all of this… Pattern your guns guys! It's a must. I wrote a lot because nobody else has been! Lol… but I hope something in these ramblings helps somebody out there.
GC
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing your experience. I started this thread October 15, 2007 after stumbling around in search of the ultimate predator shotgun combination. There was (is?) a ton of misinformation out there, speculation and plain old hype from hunters, shooters and manufacturers about shotgunning coyotes. This thread has always been and remains a work in progress. Guys like derbyacresbob, DAA, STS and a few others have made huge contributions keeping pace with shot technology. Over the years I have been contacted by several hundred people about coyote shotgun rigs. And the answer is, there is no simple answer to cover it all. I think there are some basic guidelines that can get you started in the right direction and save some time and money. Ultimately the work is the shooters and only firing patterns on the range with a method to record results to compare your findings will tell you what works in your individual gun, choke and load.
SlickerThanSnot
New member
i thought we were getting a like button?
hunt0168
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: GCThanks for sharing your experience. I started this thread October 15, 2007 after stumbling around in search of the ultimate predator shotgun combination. There was (is?) a ton of misinformation out there, speculation and plain old hype from hunters, shooters and manufacturers about shotgunning coyotes. This thread has always been and remains a work in progress. Guys like derbyacresbob, DAA, STS and a few others have made huge contributions keeping pace with shot technology. Over the years I have been contacted by several hundred people about coyote shotgun rigs. And the answer is, there is no simple answer to cover it all. I think there are some basic guidelines that can get you started in the right direction and save some time and money. Ultimately the work is the shooters and only firing patterns on the range with a method to record results to measure your findings will tell you what works in your individual gun, choke and load.
I agree 100% GC. I have patterned more than most in my circle of shooters and I’m continually asked what choke, what load, what gun should I use? After what I have experienced I just try to give them the basic guidelines and hopefully narrow things down a little. Ultimately it’s going to be a work in progress for them to figure out. It’s amazing how many will simply buy and use whatever I’m using without ever firing a round. Makes me nuts but whatever? Like I said, I have read and reread this entire thread more than once over the years. Not much has changed in the way it needs to be figured out! Lol… The contributions of some of these folks you mentioned are invaluable though. Yourself included. It’s appreciated from my end for sure.
After the inconsistencies of the Dead Coyote loads, and the insane prices of the HTL loads I just couldn’t bring myself to shoot any of it, so I hunt these critters with lead loads and keep my shots to reasonable ranges. It’s tough for me to justify $8 a round for fox or coyote that isn’t worth squat these days? I really wish I saw the light earlier on in my quest and bought cases of the Remington High Density stuff back in the day. I did at one point buy a few boxes of 2-3/4” HD BB loads labeled as Home Defense loads. I think they were 1-1/4 oz loads that would crush a fox and patterned well for me. I don’t remember if I ever dropped a coyote with them, although I’m sure they would get the job done. With our current situation I do buy quantity when I find it. The prices are insane for any ammo nowadays, but I suck it up knowing that my time afield will make me forget about what was spent. I’m chomping at the bit for October to get here so I can get after these guys! Seeing a good amount on my trail cams for sure.
I agree 100% GC. I have patterned more than most in my circle of shooters and I’m continually asked what choke, what load, what gun should I use? After what I have experienced I just try to give them the basic guidelines and hopefully narrow things down a little. Ultimately it’s going to be a work in progress for them to figure out. It’s amazing how many will simply buy and use whatever I’m using without ever firing a round. Makes me nuts but whatever? Like I said, I have read and reread this entire thread more than once over the years. Not much has changed in the way it needs to be figured out! Lol… The contributions of some of these folks you mentioned are invaluable though. Yourself included. It’s appreciated from my end for sure.
After the inconsistencies of the Dead Coyote loads, and the insane prices of the HTL loads I just couldn’t bring myself to shoot any of it, so I hunt these critters with lead loads and keep my shots to reasonable ranges. It’s tough for me to justify $8 a round for fox or coyote that isn’t worth squat these days? I really wish I saw the light earlier on in my quest and bought cases of the Remington High Density stuff back in the day. I did at one point buy a few boxes of 2-3/4” HD BB loads labeled as Home Defense loads. I think they were 1-1/4 oz loads that would crush a fox and patterned well for me. I don’t remember if I ever dropped a coyote with them, although I’m sure they would get the job done. With our current situation I do buy quantity when I find it. The prices are insane for any ammo nowadays, but I suck it up knowing that my time afield will make me forget about what was spent. I’m chomping at the bit for October to get here so I can get after these guys! Seeing a good amount on my trail cams for sure.
Originally Posted By: Kevin23Originally Posted By: Eng BobVery interesting we are going completely lead free in about 4 years over here in UK .
I think the USA will not be far behind. Not a real issue though, the advancements in tungsten and bismuth make for some real nice loads. Steel breaks targets just fine. I wouldn't miss lead being banned.
In terms of effectiveness, no arguments.
$12/rd for Hevi-shot is simply not something most people cannot afford to shoot. It might be an option for a Remington 870 in the bedroom closet that doesn't make it out for hunting season but, for everyone else, it is simply unaffordable.
Even post-COVID I can find 'lead' Pheasant loads for $12/25 at Walmart as one example. Even Winchester Super Turkey LR loads are only $21/10 and that is on the high end compared to Remington and Federal which are ~$13~$14/10 but, out of stock locally.
However, how many of us can AFFORD to shoot those loads with any regularity?
~$65/5 for Hevishot and $35~$40/10 for most Bismuth makes shooting a shotgun a rich man's sport and excludes the masses.
Bismuth loads are few and far between where I live so, perhaps pricing is a little better where it is used more. I also hope this doesn't turn into a butter/margarine/butter sort of issue where we learn after the change that the new better solution is worse than the original. Yes, lead is bad, and so is cancer and heart disease. Lead should not be used everywhere for every circumstance but, there are places and times when it is appropriate. Personally, I prefer copper or nickel-plated buckshot. For most birds out in the prairie and croplands, lead birdshot doesn't seem to be a big problem, especially relative to other things like herbicide and pesticide use and, you can argue over use of some fertilizers as well.
I think the USA will not be far behind. Not a real issue though, the advancements in tungsten and bismuth make for some real nice loads. Steel breaks targets just fine. I wouldn't miss lead being banned.
In terms of effectiveness, no arguments.
$12/rd for Hevi-shot is simply not something most people cannot afford to shoot. It might be an option for a Remington 870 in the bedroom closet that doesn't make it out for hunting season but, for everyone else, it is simply unaffordable.
Even post-COVID I can find 'lead' Pheasant loads for $12/25 at Walmart as one example. Even Winchester Super Turkey LR loads are only $21/10 and that is on the high end compared to Remington and Federal which are ~$13~$14/10 but, out of stock locally.
However, how many of us can AFFORD to shoot those loads with any regularity?
~$65/5 for Hevishot and $35~$40/10 for most Bismuth makes shooting a shotgun a rich man's sport and excludes the masses.
Bismuth loads are few and far between where I live so, perhaps pricing is a little better where it is used more. I also hope this doesn't turn into a butter/margarine/butter sort of issue where we learn after the change that the new better solution is worse than the original. Yes, lead is bad, and so is cancer and heart disease. Lead should not be used everywhere for every circumstance but, there are places and times when it is appropriate. Personally, I prefer copper or nickel-plated buckshot. For most birds out in the prairie and croplands, lead birdshot doesn't seem to be a big problem, especially relative to other things like herbicide and pesticide use and, you can argue over use of some fertilizers as well.
Originally Posted By: johral Thanks for the pics - definitely explains it. The BPI Shot that I heat treated runs about 22 Bhn, which is about 3-4 times harder than before it is heat treated. The Nickel Plated stuff from Precision Reloading was as soft as pure lead and not worth using (smaller shot is hard, magnum shot, but the larger is cheap field shot).
Originally Posted By: GCThey really shouldn't call the shot "plated." It's a soft wash, just like a rimfire "jacketed" bullet. You can scrape the plating off with your thumbnail. One time after having a bobcat hang up on me at 65 yards I got curious what might have happened if I would have taken the shot. I paced off 65 long steps and set a 20 ounce plastic water bottle on a blown down tree. At the shot the bottle flew off the tree and I knew some pellets hit home. If I remember right four pellets from the 3" No. Four Buck caught the bottle. The most interesting thing was one of the pellets hit exactly on a ridge moulded into the bottle and was laying inside the bottle flattened out about like a 5 cent piece. That's pretty soft. Later I pulled a shell apart and discovered just how thin and soft that plating actually is.
Isn't the plating meant to help prevent 'bridging' in the barrel with Buckshot? Lubricity of copper and nickel will be better than raw lead used in shot/buckshot.
Originally Posted By: GCThey really shouldn't call the shot "plated." It's a soft wash, just like a rimfire "jacketed" bullet. You can scrape the plating off with your thumbnail. One time after having a bobcat hang up on me at 65 yards I got curious what might have happened if I would have taken the shot. I paced off 65 long steps and set a 20 ounce plastic water bottle on a blown down tree. At the shot the bottle flew off the tree and I knew some pellets hit home. If I remember right four pellets from the 3" No. Four Buck caught the bottle. The most interesting thing was one of the pellets hit exactly on a ridge moulded into the bottle and was laying inside the bottle flattened out about like a 5 cent piece. That's pretty soft. Later I pulled a shell apart and discovered just how thin and soft that plating actually is.
Isn't the plating meant to help prevent 'bridging' in the barrel with Buckshot? Lubricity of copper and nickel will be better than raw lead used in shot/buckshot.
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GC
Well-known member
Lubricity is a benefit of plated shot pellets. Additionally there are various materials added as filler/buffers to help in that regard. Plated pellets are intended to be hard and not deform through the forcing cone and/or choke skirt. Round pellets fly true and stay within the pattern better than pellets with flat spots that plane off as flyers from the pattern.
Hard pellets penetrate better and break bone better than soft lead pellets. "Magnum" or chilled shot has a lead antimony formulation that is harder and deforms less than less expensive shot pellets that tend to be more pure lead. Plating can help penetration if it is the right plating material and thickness. I've found most of the copper plating to be a light wash and doesn't help penetration. Nickel plating on the other hand is very hard and does an excellent job. Then of course the denser than lead stuff like Hevi Shot, HD and TSS are very hard materials when put up right. As an example, Dead Coyote shells at one time had a bad batch of pellets that were very brittle and would crush into a gray dust upon impact with bone. I could crush the pellets from that batch with pliers easily. Hunters were shooting coyotes multiple times and rolling them end over end only to have the coyotes get up and run off. Once Environ Metal fixed the mix Dead Coyote became reliable killers again.
Hard pellets penetrate better and break bone better than soft lead pellets. "Magnum" or chilled shot has a lead antimony formulation that is harder and deforms less than less expensive shot pellets that tend to be more pure lead. Plating can help penetration if it is the right plating material and thickness. I've found most of the copper plating to be a light wash and doesn't help penetration. Nickel plating on the other hand is very hard and does an excellent job. Then of course the denser than lead stuff like Hevi Shot, HD and TSS are very hard materials when put up right. As an example, Dead Coyote shells at one time had a bad batch of pellets that were very brittle and would crush into a gray dust upon impact with bone. I could crush the pellets from that batch with pliers easily. Hunters were shooting coyotes multiple times and rolling them end over end only to have the coyotes get up and run off. Once Environ Metal fixed the mix Dead Coyote became reliable killers again.
This is a very interesting topic !
I have been trying to load some 12 gauge, 2 3/4 buckshot rounds for
chasing coyotes, with dogs.
I have tried #4, F, BBB with 3 recommend wads, buffering and roll crimped.
Both Blue dot and Longshot. My patterns at 45 yards are terrible! I have watched
A hundred utube videos where the groups are in a pie plate at 50 or 60 yards, I
can't keep mine in a 3' by 4'. I am down to buying an after market choke but there
are hundreds.
Any help with loads or a choke selection would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Mark
I have been trying to load some 12 gauge, 2 3/4 buckshot rounds for
chasing coyotes, with dogs.
I have tried #4, F, BBB with 3 recommend wads, buffering and roll crimped.
Both Blue dot and Longshot. My patterns at 45 yards are terrible! I have watched
A hundred utube videos where the groups are in a pie plate at 50 or 60 yards, I
can't keep mine in a 3' by 4'. I am down to buying an after market choke but there
are hundreds.
Any help with loads or a choke selection would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Mark
Think of the choke in terms of constriction. Peruse this thread and see what amount of restriction is generally working well for the size shot you want to use. Start with that one and pattern, pattern, pattern.
I've had good luck with both Kicks and Carlson chokes.
- DAA
I've had good luck with both Kicks and Carlson chokes.
- DAA
DAA,
Thank you for the response.
I need to narrow the search a little more !
I have $400+ in reloading supplies from Ballistic Products,
and don't want $400 or $500 in chokes. I'm using a Browning A5
With just the invector system, should I would buy another shotgun with
a back bore and longer forcing cone and choke system?
Thanks Mark
Thank you for the response.
I need to narrow the search a little more !
I have $400+ in reloading supplies from Ballistic Products,
and don't want $400 or $500 in chokes. I'm using a Browning A5
With just the invector system, should I would buy another shotgun with
a back bore and longer forcing cone and choke system?
Thanks Mark
Just another data point to add to the thread. As has been said 1000 times on this thread alone, you have to pattern YOUR gun to see what works. In my experience, there’s a lot of lore passed on as fact, and my shooting shows it to be incorrect in my guns.
The following pattern was shot at 10 yards using Remington Managed Recoil 8 pellet 00, with a factory full choke in my Beretta 1301 Tactical. It is obviously intended for home defense, which is why I didn’t test it at a longer distance (yet). Just goes to show you that buckshot doesn’t always need a more open choke.
The following pattern was shot at 10 yards using Remington Managed Recoil 8 pellet 00, with a factory full choke in my Beretta 1301 Tactical. It is obviously intended for home defense, which is why I didn’t test it at a longer distance (yet). Just goes to show you that buckshot doesn’t always need a more open choke.
DoubleLungRage
Well-known member
I have read through a lot of this and understand how everything works. So, I know that you never really know what you will get until you try it yourself. With that said...
Does anyone use the Winchester Varmint X BB? If so, what gun/choke combo did you find that patterned the best for you?
Does anyone use the Winchester Varmint X BB? If so, what gun/choke combo did you find that patterned the best for you?
hunt0168
Well-known member
I use the Varmint-X BB loads. I’m running them out of a Remington 1187 with a 21” barrel that I had the forcing cone lengthened. Pure Gold .670 choke gives me nice even patterns out to 50 yards.
Other chokes that performed well are XX Full Comp-N-Choke which is .685 constriction. H.S. Strut Undertaker HD ( High Density) which I think is a .675 constriction. Hi Vis Long Spur choke which I believe is a .670 constriction.
All of these chokes were good to about 50 yards but the Pure Gold throws a more consistently even pastern.
DoubleLungRage
Well-known member
I've got a few chokes I'm going to try. I bet the .665 Kicks will be the ticket.
Now go shoot and post some pics!