NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...
- Thread starter GC
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yotehunter74
New member
Quote:
Why would anyone want to use a tactical shotgun for predators? I think they look cool, but they really don't belong in the hunting world. If you're going to use a shotgun you need the most shot, and max distance.
Turkey guns in 3 1/2 make the most sense, and for me the gun has to be a pump. Now, I am not saying an auto shotgun isn't the cat's meow, but for me I need to use the ultra reliable pump. I live in Alska in very heavy cover and when you're hunting at -40 F (without windchill) you need to be sure the gun is going to do what it was made to do all the time.
I missed a cross fox last week shooting a Remington 870 Super Mag shooting 3 1/2 Heavyshot. The fox was well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try. My buddy had missed with his .17 and I had to see what this load could do. Obviously it was too far. When you are judging distance in the snow sometimes you think things are closer than what they are. I'll try again Friday...Ohhh and Saturday, and Sunday! Keep calling!
well, as for why you would want to use one since they "don't belong in the hunting world" is because they do the job, and do it well... I hunted fox this year with the mossberg tactical turkey, and we killed over 60 greys... mine has taken coyote out to 52 yards, i usually limit myself to 50 but it was to close to that to tell. Knowing the limitations of your gun is the most important part... I guess you overlooked that when that fox you shot at was "well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try" I will just keep killing stuff with my tactical gun that dont belong, and you just keep taking the chance on wounding critters with your "hunting gun".
sorry for the rant GC and others who have put so much time into this thread.
Why would anyone want to use a tactical shotgun for predators? I think they look cool, but they really don't belong in the hunting world. If you're going to use a shotgun you need the most shot, and max distance.
Turkey guns in 3 1/2 make the most sense, and for me the gun has to be a pump. Now, I am not saying an auto shotgun isn't the cat's meow, but for me I need to use the ultra reliable pump. I live in Alska in very heavy cover and when you're hunting at -40 F (without windchill) you need to be sure the gun is going to do what it was made to do all the time.
I missed a cross fox last week shooting a Remington 870 Super Mag shooting 3 1/2 Heavyshot. The fox was well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try. My buddy had missed with his .17 and I had to see what this load could do. Obviously it was too far. When you are judging distance in the snow sometimes you think things are closer than what they are. I'll try again Friday...Ohhh and Saturday, and Sunday! Keep calling!
well, as for why you would want to use one since they "don't belong in the hunting world" is because they do the job, and do it well... I hunted fox this year with the mossberg tactical turkey, and we killed over 60 greys... mine has taken coyote out to 52 yards, i usually limit myself to 50 but it was to close to that to tell. Knowing the limitations of your gun is the most important part... I guess you overlooked that when that fox you shot at was "well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try" I will just keep killing stuff with my tactical gun that dont belong, and you just keep taking the chance on wounding critters with your "hunting gun".
sorry for the rant GC and others who have put so much time into this thread.
I am a hunter from Norway, and I have been testing shotgun patterns for the last 4 or 5 years. When lead became illegal in Norway I was one of the first to aquire and test HeviShot in this country.
We dont have coyotes in Norway, but we hunt a small deer named ”Rådyr”, which i belive is a little bit bigger.
We have examined about 18 – 22 deers that have been shot using shotgun, to see how the pellets penetrate the body. We have mesured the distance the deer was shot very carefully, and then shot at the same distance on a dry Norwegian standard phone book. From the results we have made a formel for safly killing a deer, as long as you hit as you should. 15 to 20 pellets within an area of 8” x 12”, with pellets no smaller than US4 penetrating 240 pages. Then about 3 to 6 pellets will be located in the skin on the oppsite side of the deer. With bigger pellets fewer are needed within the target area to be lethal.
We first got Wingmaster to Norway in 2007, and from testshooting it seems like it is harder to get a tight pattern with Wingmaster than with HeviShot, but it seems like Wingmaster penetrates deeper. After looking inside the Wingmaster shells I have found that US nr 6, 4, 2 and BB have no buffer, while T has.
Have anybody tried to open a Wingmaster and put buffer in it, and see how it performs?
I only discovered this forum about ten days ago, but I have been reading with great interest since that.
I hope that you find my results interesting, as I see it as a payback for all the information I have learned from American hunters and companies (trulock and more) the last years. I consider it my pleasure, and hope you find it usefull.
Gun: Browning Gold Hunter cal 12, 740, 3 1/2"
Shell: Wingmaster BB, 3 1/2", 1 3/4 oz, 1300 fps
Choke: Browning Extra Full Turkey, 700
Distance: 60 m / 65,6 yards
Penetration test, same data as above.
The phone book was shot in the backside, and the deepest pellets penetrated to page 613. The book is 1040 pages, so that gives us a penetration of 427 pages.
Gun: Valmet 412 cal 12, 3", 730
Shell: Wingmaster 3", 1 3/8 oz, 2, 1450 fps
Choke: Trulock Sporting Clay Extra Full 690
Distance: 50 m / 54,7 yards
Same data as above.
Same gun, shell and choke as above.
Distance: 40 m / 43,7 yards
Same data as above.
Please forgive my bad english.
Rox
We dont have coyotes in Norway, but we hunt a small deer named ”Rådyr”, which i belive is a little bit bigger.
We have examined about 18 – 22 deers that have been shot using shotgun, to see how the pellets penetrate the body. We have mesured the distance the deer was shot very carefully, and then shot at the same distance on a dry Norwegian standard phone book. From the results we have made a formel for safly killing a deer, as long as you hit as you should. 15 to 20 pellets within an area of 8” x 12”, with pellets no smaller than US4 penetrating 240 pages. Then about 3 to 6 pellets will be located in the skin on the oppsite side of the deer. With bigger pellets fewer are needed within the target area to be lethal.
We first got Wingmaster to Norway in 2007, and from testshooting it seems like it is harder to get a tight pattern with Wingmaster than with HeviShot, but it seems like Wingmaster penetrates deeper. After looking inside the Wingmaster shells I have found that US nr 6, 4, 2 and BB have no buffer, while T has.
Have anybody tried to open a Wingmaster and put buffer in it, and see how it performs?
I only discovered this forum about ten days ago, but I have been reading with great interest since that.
I hope that you find my results interesting, as I see it as a payback for all the information I have learned from American hunters and companies (trulock and more) the last years. I consider it my pleasure, and hope you find it usefull.
Gun: Browning Gold Hunter cal 12, 740, 3 1/2"
Shell: Wingmaster BB, 3 1/2", 1 3/4 oz, 1300 fps
Choke: Browning Extra Full Turkey, 700
Distance: 60 m / 65,6 yards
Penetration test, same data as above.
The phone book was shot in the backside, and the deepest pellets penetrated to page 613. The book is 1040 pages, so that gives us a penetration of 427 pages.
Gun: Valmet 412 cal 12, 3", 730
Shell: Wingmaster 3", 1 3/8 oz, 2, 1450 fps
Choke: Trulock Sporting Clay Extra Full 690
Distance: 50 m / 54,7 yards
Same data as above.
Same gun, shell and choke as above.
Distance: 40 m / 43,7 yards
Same data as above.
Please forgive my bad english.
Rox
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Hello Rox, that is some good information. On buffering the Remington Wingmaster HD loads, I don't think it would be needed and it may not be safe either. Since the HD patterns so good and the pellets stay round after firing and digging them out of catalogs, why use buffer? I know with heavy lead loads the pressure of the load can go up 1000 psi to 1500 psi just by adding buffer.
bobcatspotfever
New member
This is a very imformative thread.I have read most and really enjoyed the knowledge being shared.I don't really have much to offer.But..............I just gotta say a thing or two /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The very best #4 buck I have ever shot was the Remington nickel plated shot.Boy I am sorry they don't make that no more! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif It performed great for me and was my go to load.Oh I shoot a Benelli M1 field 24" barrel in 3" shells.The Fedearl copper plated shot for me isn't nealy as good.And I am curious about something too.Alot of them Federal loads the buffer material comes pouring out of quite a few shells and I was even given NEW boxes one time and was told by Federal they were aware of problem and got a NEW crimper.Well I still get that stuff outta some shells from federal wheather its #5 shot or whatever.Makes me think if you shoot a shell that lost a bunch the pellets can do funny things also.As a trapper you can also try stuff out on March and summer worthless coyote pelts too.So your all set on paper at say 40 yds with a load,go to your trapped coyote pace off 40 yds and try your load out!!Fedearal copper plated BBs so far seem to really kill coyotes good for me.I haven't tried the new stuff.After reading this I ordered some of those Dead Coyote loads to try em out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif I have been using mostly a full choke but after seeing GC post I just had to try out a .670 extra full as a combo for turkey and coyotes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif The Cabela's chokes like someone mentioned seem the way to go if your poor like me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Bill
coyote control
New member
Quote:
I just gotta say a thing or two /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The very best #4 buck I have ever shot was the Remington nickel plated shot.Boy I am sorry they don't make that no more! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif It performed great for me and was my go to load.Oh I shoot a Benelli M1 field 24" barrel in 3" shells.The Fedearl copper plated shot for me isn't nealy as good. Bill
You know Bill I can say the same thing about what you have said above.
I bought 250 rds of the Rem. Nickel #4 BK and Fed Plated #4BK a few years back. The Nickel BK had a much better pattern than the Fed and Win. shells.
I am glad I bought alot of them!
I just gotta say a thing or two /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif The very best #4 buck I have ever shot was the Remington nickel plated shot.Boy I am sorry they don't make that no more! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif It performed great for me and was my go to load.Oh I shoot a Benelli M1 field 24" barrel in 3" shells.The Fedearl copper plated shot for me isn't nealy as good. Bill
You know Bill I can say the same thing about what you have said above.
I bought 250 rds of the Rem. Nickel #4 BK and Fed Plated #4BK a few years back. The Nickel BK had a much better pattern than the Fed and Win. shells.
I am glad I bought alot of them!
This is an awesome thread.I got into this one since Im usually the one who packs the shotgun when Im calling with a partner.But I was wondering GC,you said that it takes 5 solid hits for reliable kills.Im assuming that is with larger shot sizes.But I was wondering how many hits it would take from smaller shot like #5 shot?I am going to pattern my turkey gun with Hevi Shot #5s and Remington Nitro Turkey #4s and maybe some other brands of turkey loads this week.But I was wondering why it wouldnt be better to kill coyotes and other predators with smaller shot since they seem to pattern better?With smaller shot you would be hitting the coyote in the vitals with alot more pellets when you may only hit him a couple with the larger shot.This was just something I was wondering about and I thought I would ask you guys.Thanks for spending the time and money doing these tests they are really interesting and helpful. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
OKRattler, the smaller pellets may not penetrate into the vitals at 40 yards like the bigger pellets do. If you are just shooting at the head and neck at 35 yards and less the smaller shot will work fine. I kill quite a few coyotes every year with a shotgun and at least 30% of them don't give me head and neck shots. With lead loads the smallest pellets I use are BB's, with the Remington HD, 2's are as small as I am going to go for coyotes. The bigger pellet loads will knock down coyotes that are not giving you that perfect shot and they also work great on the perfect head and neck shots. Check out the Remington Wingmaster HD 2's pattern on page 9 of this post. It has bigger pellets and a dense pattern and out penetrates Hevi-Shot "B" pellets.
GC
Well-known member
OKRattler,
As Bob said, it's all about penetration and vital tissue disruption. I'd much prefer 5-8 vital hits with plated lead No. 4BK, or "denser than lead" stuff like Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T-shot, and/or my personal pick the Remington HD-BB or T-shot - as opposed to twice as many hits from a no. 5 shot from a turkey load. Especially at any ranges over 30 yards.
Little shot just doesn't penetrate as well. It is light and loses energy much faster than larger/heavier shot. A turkey’s skull/neck isn't that hard to crack, so no. #5's works fine for that application. However, a coyote is considerably larger, much heavier boned, furred, and muscled. Additionally, coyotes are a flat out "gritty" animal capable of taking punishment far out of proportion to its size. I don't favor any shot smaller than BB's for coyotes - especially so if you consider taking shots at 40+ yards.
Shot angles must be considered. Head shots are preferred IMHO. Head and neck shots are the most reliable killers with the less fuss than any other IMHO. However, the typical heart/lung shoulder shot sometimes is all that can be had. That requires more of the shot; it has to penetrate fur, muscle, sinew, and bone, to disrupt vital tissue. More weight, velocity, hardness, and size get the job done. A going away shot is the worst possible shot for a shotgunner. Usually unless the coyote is very close, or wounded, this shot should be passed up. In this last case, you will be shooting more than once. A shot in the rear will often cause the coyote’s hind end to drop and the coyote will sling its head around to nip at the rear end. This is what the shotgunner should be waiting for, that head to come around, and then hit it again quickly in the head and maybe you can get the job done with only two shots. Otherwise, look out! The scene will go bad and sounds like the OK Corral gunfight, with a good chance of an escaped and wounded coyote.
I wouldn't choose turkey loads with small shot for a self defense or duty shotgun beyond hallway distances within a house because of the very same reason. Larger buckshot gets the job done at longer distances and through heavier outdoor clothing because of the same principle. Cops and dangerous game hunters that use shotguns for defensive purposes don't use turkey loads...
As Bob said, it's all about penetration and vital tissue disruption. I'd much prefer 5-8 vital hits with plated lead No. 4BK, or "denser than lead" stuff like Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T-shot, and/or my personal pick the Remington HD-BB or T-shot - as opposed to twice as many hits from a no. 5 shot from a turkey load. Especially at any ranges over 30 yards.
Little shot just doesn't penetrate as well. It is light and loses energy much faster than larger/heavier shot. A turkey’s skull/neck isn't that hard to crack, so no. #5's works fine for that application. However, a coyote is considerably larger, much heavier boned, furred, and muscled. Additionally, coyotes are a flat out "gritty" animal capable of taking punishment far out of proportion to its size. I don't favor any shot smaller than BB's for coyotes - especially so if you consider taking shots at 40+ yards.
Shot angles must be considered. Head shots are preferred IMHO. Head and neck shots are the most reliable killers with the less fuss than any other IMHO. However, the typical heart/lung shoulder shot sometimes is all that can be had. That requires more of the shot; it has to penetrate fur, muscle, sinew, and bone, to disrupt vital tissue. More weight, velocity, hardness, and size get the job done. A going away shot is the worst possible shot for a shotgunner. Usually unless the coyote is very close, or wounded, this shot should be passed up. In this last case, you will be shooting more than once. A shot in the rear will often cause the coyote’s hind end to drop and the coyote will sling its head around to nip at the rear end. This is what the shotgunner should be waiting for, that head to come around, and then hit it again quickly in the head and maybe you can get the job done with only two shots. Otherwise, look out! The scene will go bad and sounds like the OK Corral gunfight, with a good chance of an escaped and wounded coyote.
I wouldn't choose turkey loads with small shot for a self defense or duty shotgun beyond hallway distances within a house because of the very same reason. Larger buckshot gets the job done at longer distances and through heavier outdoor clothing because of the same principle. Cops and dangerous game hunters that use shotguns for defensive purposes don't use turkey loads...
Thanks for the info guys you have been very helpful.When I carry the shotgun I usually have it loaded with Dead Coyote loads but unfortunately I havent got a chance to try them out on a coyote yet.But the reason I asked is because I have only killed 2 bobcats and 1 coyote in my predator hunting career.Two of them were shot with turkey loads and the other was in a trap with a 22.The bobcat I shot was only fifteen yards away with Hevi shot #5 out of a 12 guage and the coyote I shot was from 35 yards with Remington #4 shot at 35 yards with a 20 gauge both were DRT.But I wasnt really lookin for predators when I shot the coyote I was turkey huntin and thats all I had.And I shot the bobcat when i went to check my trap one day and I that was the biggest shot I had at the time.I do hunt with larger shot when Im calling predators but I just wanted to know about the turkey loads since I have alot more of that stuff than the other.Again thanks for answering my question and puttin this tests together. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Thanks for great work that Bob and GC and all other does,it is very intresting , as I said we have been testing a great deal this last years.We have bouth 16 choketubes from Trulock 665-705 4 Srm Terror 1 Wad Wizard Supreme 2 Mad Max Turkey and Waterfoul 1 Rem hevy shot and 1 Browning extra full.The guns we have testing is Beretta 687,White Onyx and Ulrikka.Benelli SBEII Crio and Supernova.Browning Gold Hunter. Rem 870 .SKB and Valmet 412.It seems that most of the guns perform best with chokes around extra full with pellets from us 2 and bigger, eccept Supernova and Ulrikka they goes best with tighter chokes.The favorite shell have been Rem Hevi Shot us 2 we are very satisfied with that, but no it seem that Wingmaster are better. No I shall be carefully so it not seems like I am an ekspert I am not,but maybee some of you boys use to tight chokes and to big pellets.Try to do like Bob said Wingmaster us 2 or BB and not to tigth chokes , I think that is a winner. Rox.
nevjohn
New member
Coyote Pattern Target
13 pages; just cut and tape as numbered then cutout. Transfer this to cardboard for your template. Using a large Sharpie pen, outline this cardboard template onto your patterning paper, as shown in picture.
http://coyotecanada.ca/coyote_template.pdf
13 pages; just cut and tape as numbered then cutout. Transfer this to cardboard for your template. Using a large Sharpie pen, outline this cardboard template onto your patterning paper, as shown in picture.
http://coyotecanada.ca/coyote_template.pdf
Lead_Slinger
New member
Once again i find myself seeking the help from the pros at pm. This thread was awsome and im glad it's here because frankly, Im at a military school right now and do not have the time to play or money to spend on figuring out a perfect load choke combination for the Benelli SBE II I am going to purchase at the Tulsa gun show this weekend. I am buying this shotgun for upland birds, waterfowel and coyotes. Will be hunting on post where my shots can and will sometimes be 50 yards.
#1 is a 26" barrel suggested?
#2 choke diameter .660 .670 .680? (only for yotes of course)
#3 3 1/2 or 3 shells
#4 Shell recommendation for this setup
GC or anyother with far more shotgun experience in this area please bless me with your knowledge. humbly, grass hopper
#1 is a 26" barrel suggested?
#2 choke diameter .660 .670 .680? (only for yotes of course)
#3 3 1/2 or 3 shells
#4 Shell recommendation for this setup
GC or anyother with far more shotgun experience in this area please bless me with your knowledge. humbly, grass hopper
#1) I find the 28" bbl real long on benelli's due to loner recievers as compaired to other guns
#2) I have a M-2 that shoots best patterns with factory full dimensioned choke .690, I have a trulock hunter extended tube and factory both shoot better that the real tight chokes with big shot
#3) My personal take on 3.5" shells get a 10 gauge!!!
#4) Hard to beat #4 buck but check regs. first.
#2) I have a M-2 that shoots best patterns with factory full dimensioned choke .690, I have a trulock hunter extended tube and factory both shoot better that the real tight chokes with big shot
#3) My personal take on 3.5" shells get a 10 gauge!!!
#4) Hard to beat #4 buck but check regs. first.
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
On the barrel length 26" or 28" are both good , just get what feels better to you. What ever barrel length you like for bird hunting will work good for predators.
On what choke you want to use, you need to try a few patterns with the shells you are going to use to find out. A mod, imp/mod or a full would be good ones to try.
I agree with acorn on the 3-1/2" shells. The 3-1/2" shells were made for shooting steel loads. The lead and heavier than lead loads in 12ga 3" that are available now are great shells and kick me as hard as I want to be kicked.
For lead loads I prefer the Federal 3" Premium 1-7/8oz of copper coated lead BB's but #4 buckshot is also a great load. The Remington Wingmaster HD and the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote loads are in a league by them selves as far as performance goes but they are expensive.
On what choke you want to use, you need to try a few patterns with the shells you are going to use to find out. A mod, imp/mod or a full would be good ones to try.
I agree with acorn on the 3-1/2" shells. The 3-1/2" shells were made for shooting steel loads. The lead and heavier than lead loads in 12ga 3" that are available now are great shells and kick me as hard as I want to be kicked.
For lead loads I prefer the Federal 3" Premium 1-7/8oz of copper coated lead BB's but #4 buckshot is also a great load. The Remington Wingmaster HD and the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote loads are in a league by them selves as far as performance goes but they are expensive.
Lead_Slinger
New member
thanks guys i wrote it all down and will look for those items at the show.