? for all the shotgunners.

C

Chupathingy

New member
First off let me start by acknowledging GC for all of his patience with my questions. He has been my shotgun information guide for over a year now and frankly I have worn that dude out with questions.

For that I say Thankyou GC /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif


I have written here many times about how poor of a shot I am with a shotgun and it is true /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif But after speaking to guy that I know that has been a "Professional" Trap shooter for many years I think I know why I'm so bad. We had been talking and he mentioned that you should not "See the runway" when shooting a shotgun but instead only see the bead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif. Why I never realized this...I have no idea as it seems soooooooo elementary. In short, my cheek weld is too high.

Are there any products or drills that I can buy/practice to become more proficient? I don't believe it to be a comb height issue as my shotgun has no comb and I'm too high already....Unless it's one of those "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" type deals /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif.

Help me out guys, I want in on the fun.

Chupa
 
you can't say sight a shotgun with 2 beads (one about 6" in front of the reciever) and line them up so the back one is directly behind the front one, like lining up sights? if you do that you should only see a bead, no rib, and your pattern should go to the POA. No shotgun expert here but I carry a shotgun during spring gobbler season, my predator shotgun/rifle combo is scoped though.
But a holosight will work too.
RR
 
I suggest you find a good gun fitter, most likely at a higher end skeet club or you can at least ask there.

I'm fairly short so my shotguns require a 13" length of pull(12 1/2" on my hunting guns for the heavier clothing) and 2 1/2 to 3" pitch on the butt, comb height for ME does not seem to be much of a problem as I can shoot old doubles with very crooked stocks as well as modern straighter stock.

AWS
 
hey hows it goin, Ive missed plenty of shots myself with a shotgun so I wouldnt feel like the lone ranger.

" We had been talking and he mentioned that you should not "See the runway" when shooting a shotgun but instead only see the bead . Why I never realized this...I have no idea as it seems soooooooo elementary. In short, my cheek weld is too high. "

What he means by the " runway " Im not quite sure? (sorry for the stupid question) but Ive always used the bead... which Ive both failed and succeeded at depending on the shot which has been presented to me.
 
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What he means by the " runway " Im not quite sure? (sorry for the stupid question)

Butch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif




When he says "seeing the runway" he means being able to see the top of the rib on the barrel. He says you shouldn't be able to see the rib at all an only see the bead.

Getting my line of sight down that low really feels uncomfortable(but most new things do) and was hoping to avoid putting "Glass" on my shotgun.

Chupa
 
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Getting my line of sight down that low really feels uncomfortable(but most new things do) and was hoping to avoid putting "Glass" on my shotgun.


yes it does at first, and if your shotgun is poorly designed or doesn't fit you it'll give you an immediate nose bleed (don't ask me how I know this).
Try an O/U if you can, I've always shot them better than pumps and semi's, easier to get a good sight picture, shorter overall so they point/handle better
RR
 
The nature of wing shooting requires good, better yet perfect fit. No optics, sights, or time to adjust, breathe, squeeze, etc.

+1 on the importance of shotgun fit.
 
I gave up on trying to shoot things out of the air a long time ago, because of lack of skill. This will be for coyotes, but I still have managed misses on them as well.


Chupa
 
If you feel like you need to smash your face down on the stock to make the barrel look good you can file down the comb on the stock to get what you want. Is your shotgun shooting high? Most trap guns are set up to shoot high because you are always shooting at rising targets when you shoot trap. On most trap guns you CAN see the runway. With a shotgun your eye is the rear sight and if your shotgun fits you and you have your head is on the stock, about 90% of your vision should be on your target not on the bead on your barrel. I have a Remington 870 that I had to put a pad on the comb to get the comb height up where I need it. Without the 3/16 pad on the comb I can't even see the bead on the barrel. If your shotgun shoots too high and it doesn't feel comfortable to you, file the comb down a little at a time until it shoots where you are looking. On my Browning Ultra XS Sporting Clays O/U I can see just a little of the runway and it works perfect for me. About 60%of the pattern is high and 40% low on my Sporting Clays gun.
 
I used to have to bend the stock (actualy the metal rod coming out of the receiver) down a bit and sand the stock to fit the receiver on Rem 1100's.

Then I bought a Benelli, they come with spacers and fit me. No one shoots well with an ill fitted shotgun.
 
When you see the "runway" as you call it either the stock is too short for you{which by the way is the case with better than one third of the shooters I see} or you dont have enough drop. If the stock is too short you will pull the gun back to your shoulder just before the shot which will make you shoot off because of the delay. Have someone watch you mount the gun and see if you are pulling back. If the stock is long enough and you still are seeing rib then you need more drop. Many guys shoot with poor fitting guns and are not bad shots at all but it is hard and they have generally fired many hundreds of rounds to overcome the poorly fitting gun. Like the old saying....."you can drive your car with your feet if you want to but that dont make it a good FN idea!!!!"
 
I shoot a bit of trap and one thing I dont look at is my bead(s). My eye is on the clay and I run normally 22-25s all the time.
Every "pro" has their own idea/way to shoot/teach.
I know a few trap guys that have even take the beads off the bbl.
I used to eye my beads, but missed more than I hit, then I just wacthed the clay, see clay hit clay.
Gun fit is very important IMO than anything else.
 
I didnt win a state championship in sporting clays by looking at the front bead, thats for sure!! Take a hard focus on the target and see what that does for you. When you look at the front of the shotgun (bead) your gun will slow down or even stop. I am a class 3 certified instructor and this is what i see alot of shooters do. Even good shooters still peak at the front bead because they dont trust them selves, or trust the lead of the target. Focus on the target and the gun will follow. Another thing is gun fit, and i highly doubt your shotgun fits. Most dont have any idea there gun doesnt fit them. I would suggest that you quit listening to everyone at the club and find one good teacher to help you out. Have fun!1 Lee
 
I use sustained lead almost all the time, except for quick, short ranged shots, where time doesn't allow for it. And, I see the bead in relation to the target in doing so. But, gun fit is important as your eye, as positioned on the comb, is your rear sight. If the stock is too "straight" you will shot high. If it is too low, you will shoot low. The first thing you need to do is to establish where your shot charge is going .... high or low, right or left and by how much.

The standard method is to put up a large sheet of paper (about 40" by 40" or larger) or cardboard at about 40 yards with a large dot as an aiming point in the center. Using a tight patterning choke. Mount the gun quickly and fire as soon as the bead touches the aiming point. Doing this several different times will tell you whether you are shooting high, low, right or left and if you are consistently hitting the same place. Some people, instinctive shooters, will tell you not to use the bead as a reference point, just focus intently on the target, but it can be done. And, when using the bead as a sight, proper gun fit is much, much less important.

Your gun can be adjusted to bring the point of impact in coincidence with the point of aim. If the centers of your patterns are hitting at different points on the paper with each shot, your gun mounting needs to be improved, so your eye is positioned in the same place each time you mount the gun to your shoulder. Your gun mounts need to be consistent before you try to adjust your stock ...... unless you are using a separate right sight on your gun.
 
Skeetlee about covered it all except he forgot to mention according to the ATA (Amateur Trap Association) There is not any Pro Trap Shooters..

If your looking at the bead your aiming. Shotguns are pointed not aimed.. Depending on how your gun is set up and by what you say you are shooting high. Assuming that you have a standard Shotgun it most likely is a flat shooting gun 50/50 meaning 50% of the pattern above center and 50% below. If thats the case when you mount the Gun you should be looking flat down the barrel.
Now if you mount the Gun and the bead looks high it either does not fit you or it's set up for a different pattern 60/40 or even 70/30.
Now with all that being said the higher your stock makes your head sit the higher the front bead has to come up to look flat to you.
Here is a simple way to pattern your Shotgun to find out where it's shooting. (This is important) Using a Bench and Rests just like a Rifle sighting in session. Set up a Target with a Bullseye exactly 13 yards and shoot it. Do this several times. Your looking for a group just like your Rifle. This will tell you what you need to do to your shorgun.
 
Trapshooter12 is correct with his method of determining shot impact. The other method above doest work so well. the fellas is already having trouble so we must assume that there will be to much shooter error involved in the method stated by CDR. you need to take the shooter out of the equation to determine impact before you can move on. Even on sustained lead there is absolutely no reason to look at the front bead!!!!! NEVER EVER Look at the front bead!! If you cant make yourself do this, then take the bead off of the gun. I do understand what CDR is saying as far as barrel bird relationship, but thats to advanced in this situation! You must have a shotgun that fits at least halfway right, Then you need to learn to trust yourself to look at the target and not the barrel. Until you can trust yourself you can not go any further. This doesnt mean that you going to be fixed and that your scores will double. they most likely will get worse. But you must learn this basic shotgun shooting fundamental before a coach or an instructor can start picking at your other bad habits or your bad technique. I would suggest you read as much as you can on proper gun fit or better yet go see a gun fitter. (I have to have all my shotguns fit to me) Then i would work directly on gaining the trust you need with yourself by not looking at the front of the gun. Go to a skeet field and work on low house straight aways. Keep shooting them until you brake 90% the go work on high house straight aways until you can brake 90%. Then work on some close crossing shots. Send me a Pm if you have anything else you need to talk about. I have helped several students with the basics of shotgunning. there is a hole lot more to it than one would think!! Just remember to trust yourself and Do NOT LOOK AT THE FRONT BEAD!!!!!! EVER!!!! Lee
 
OH YA Trapshooter is also correct about no such thing as a professional trap shooter. There are however Professional exhibition shooters and the live pigeon shooters are somewhat professional, Big time money in that game!! Sometimes i think there should be a pro division, but there isn't any such thing. Lee
 
Chupa,
You are getting some great advise here. It sounds to me like your gun doesn't fit you for wingshooting, fast moving targets in the brush, ect. However, for gobblers and some predator hunting situations, aimed shots with a tight shooting rig you actually do need to "aim" the gun and seeing the wrong sight picture relative to the rib and bead(s) will cause a miss. So stock fit and decent technique is critical. Some guns come with stock shims to help correct some issues. I've forgotten what you are shooting? I like the bench rest and 13 yard advise for a new gun to see what is up with it. Then I move out to 40 yards for patterning chokes and loads.
 
Chupathingy, I was in the same boat as you, I could not hit anything with a shotgun. I found out the biggest problem was that I was trying to aim the shotgun instead of following the target with my eyes and letting my hands follow my eye. I read through this site and it really helped me understand what I was missing when it came to shooting a shotgun, Or should I say why I was missing. I didn't go to any school, I just read, did my best to absorb, and then went to the skeet range and shot some sporting clays. I found that like you I was looking at the entire rib instead of the rib being level with only the bead being visible. I moved to a shotgun with more drop at comb and heel and followed the suggestions off this site and my shooting went from barely being able to hit anything to being a pretty decent shot.

http://www.ospschool.com/know.html
 
Beads are just a distraction...............

If your shotgun has an adjustable comb,adjust it so that the center bead and the front bead are in perfect alignment(one behind the other, or on top of each other)to verify you have done this correctly close your eyes and mount the gun, open your eyes and look at the beads to check thier alingment. If it is off adjust the comb and do it again, closing your eyes/mounting, until you get it right.

It also dosen`t matter if you can see the rib between the beads, it just means that you have a higher point of impact,this is a good thing.

If there is no rib showing between the beads you are shooting with a lower point of impact, this is harder since you are shooting a rising target.

When you have the gun right practice mounting it over and over until it becomes routine, eye`s closed/then open, till it becomes second nature.


At this point go shoot targets, DON`T look at the beads anymore(your past that point now)just focus on the target(with both eyes OPEN) and watching it break.....

If your local club will let you shoot stationary targets do so...put the trap on #3 straight aways and shoot to get your point of impact figured out,you will probably have to raise or lower your comb until you smack them,when you are hammering them you got it...

It takes a little while, but it`s not rocket science, you`ll get it......

Phil.

ATA AA27AA

PS..If you really want to dial this in do it with a full choke.....

I shoot a 2+ in a Krieghoff which is a Improved modified, or .025
 
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