Call design copying?

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Hello Everybody,
I feel obligated to respond to this thread, since Tony so lovingly posted pic's of my calls. I can honestly say I have never even seen a Screamin' Demon, let alone copied it. Making custom calls is a design process that happens at the lathe for me. I apologize if I offended anybody. That was not my intension.
I agree with a couple of other posts on here. C_lantrans nailed it pretty good. There is only so much that you can do with a call design. I like certain ideas some times and try to combine them with my ideas. Half the time when you’re done sanding the call, the design changes even more. I seriously can say I did not knowingly copy the Screamin' Demon.
Thanks
Dakota Custom Calls
 
No Steve it does not.

But....

When someone copies another makers work, and then sell it on the sly, it is a bit...underhanded don't you think?

It has been done on this board in the past by call makers here. I am sure it will be done in the future too.

Then there are the guys who come here, ask all kinds of questions, send you 50 PM's a week about everything they can think of, and the next week, they are call makers on another board and never come back here unless they need help with something else.

If it keeps up, predator call making will become like duck and turkey call making. New guys will get no help at all. If you want to see a perfect example of this, visit custom calls on line. You will never find a more arrogant self centered bunch of call makers as you will there. Help? Your answer will be "you have to experiment and thry different thigns" No one wants the other guy to make calls because of the competition.

I gaurantee you, it is coming to the predator call making world soon. Too many people who ask questions today and are call makers tomorrow. This is the ONLY board I know of where the entire call making process had been explained in detail for anyone to see. Start to finsih with nothing left out. It's a small community, but it is growing. There seem to be a lot of people who are not predator hunters getting into making calls because they see a quick buck.

Ninthinning....

I have been selling predator calls on E bay for over two years now. You are new to selling predator calls there.

You have recently come up with some very new styles that seem to be very close to some of the styles of the call makers on this board. It just seems funny that these styles appeard soon after you registered here.

We may not be the brightest bulbs in the series, but we can do the math. 2 + 2 may not = 4, but you have to admit, it looks funny.

It used to upset me to no end to work my tail off and come up with a design only to see someone else copy it and then take credit for it, or at the very least, give no credit at all. It's been done by call makers on this board so don't feel singled out. It still does to some eztent, but the tact that I take now is to let you do what you want. You will anyway. I will continue to make my calls in the style that is pleasing to me, and I will work to improve all aspects of my calls to ensure that they are the best on the market. I hope that anyone who reads this feels free to copy my work. It just pushes me to be better. There is much more to making a call than turning a fancy piece of wood and putting a brass band on it. I want people to pick up one of my calls and go "wow". So pleae keep pushing me because one day, that will happen.

I sign all of my calls except the acrylics, and we are planning on haveing those lazer engraved in the near future. At the very least they will have stickers on them. I started doing it because people asked me to. Now I do it because there are a lot of copies out there. My goal, as stated above however, is to not need to sign my calls because people will know the minute they pick them up who made them.

Al
THO Game Calls
 
I think that everyone here make some remarkable calls. It takes real talent to turn or design calls. Since becoming a memeber here I have slowly gotten rid of my factory calls one at a time in exchange for the custom ones here. My hat is off to all of you who have this talent.




Bryan
 
Al, When you start lazer engraving the calls, can I send a couple back to have them lazered?

To me the mark of a true professional is someone who makes the extra effort to put his name on his work whether it's a decal, ink signature, brand or engraving. Some might call it ego, but I feel it's more akin to pride. There is a difference.

Somebody made a statement about Custom Calls Online. IT's true. I once asked a simple question of where the guy got the cardboard boxes for his calls. You's have thought I asked for his Mother's secret Spagetti recipie. There's a few good people over there.

I have helped a lot of fellows make calls over the years and in many instances, they to callmaking artistry to a higher level than me and I'm very glad they did.

I've had guys call me and ask if it's OK to make a call like mine. That's OK too as far as I'm concerned because they cannot duplicate the brand I place on my calls.

There are only so many round shapes you can make that look decent. Beyond that, everything looks like a chair spindle.

Put your mark on it. Possibly cut your left ear off and then you might have a winner.
 
This has been an “interesting” thread and in some ways has me somewhat concerned. Not because of the topic, but because I am looking at my calls and wondering if people are saying that my calls look like someone else’s calls. In the beginning, and still today, I have gotten LOTS of assistance from THO. I even emailed him once and said that I was concerned that the calls I was making resembled his. (I don’t feel that my calls equal his, but they do look somewhat similar.) He said not to worry about it and to check out the duck calls – they all look somewhat the same. Now, THO has sent me some brass bands and I also ordered some tubing to start making some calls with a band attached. Does this make my calls replicates of THO? I have also started working on gluing up some woods and turning them. This is new to me, but other call builders have been doing it. Not many are making a two-piece call. If someone else starts, are they copying? Several call builders here have their signature calls, but at times (for whatever reason) chose to turn a different shape. If that shape resembles a call that they have seen or a shape that they like, are they too guilty?

I agree that I would not be happy if someone took one of my calls, put it on a duplicarver, and started selling them. But my concern is how close would a call need to be to be considered a copy?

I am not trying to fuel the fire, but feel that these are questions that it might be good to address. If for no other reason than my own peace of mind.

Hawk
 
Here are my bear call's. i feel look's like Rhino call's. i'm not going to make any more. was going to order some more springbok. but feel like i'm copying that to. not sure what i want to make. . it's kinda been a headache. what's wrong and what's right.i try to be different than other people. that's why i sold the jig's. right now it's snowing going to go kill a cougar.just got alot on my mine. Rick

butch041.jpg
 
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Sorry guys,

I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth. The reason I was hooked off the bat on this forum was because you guys presented your selves as the most dedicated and professional group out there. Ive been reading lots and periodically put my two cents in. To this end I have even (In apreciation to your information and commitment) commissioned a special call to be made for auction, with the benifits to be given to P-Masters.

Sure im aware of other places to do buissiness, but I appreciate what each and every one of you call makers bring to this forum. With out that I would have probly never even started this type of hunting.

I hope I can speek for the masses when I say all of you bring your special touch to each of your creations even if it bears resemblance to another. Ive yet to see anyone here make a "DUPE" of another persons call. Thats why you all have a loyal and dedicated folowing.

You all need to continue what you have been doing. Making the Best calls out there!! Forget you even read any of this BullS#@T and get on with it.

P.S. Im in the market for a couple calls. Any one have an idea where I should look?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Dave
 
Hey Jerry, don't worry about it if you think your calls look like my calls or the other way around. No big deal.

I have shared everything I have learned about making calls with anyone who has asked.

I have had people send me E mails asking me how to make lanyards so they could make a bunch up and sell them at a show they were going to.

I got a PM from someone here wanting 10 toneboards. The toneboard is the heart of the call. This guy doesn't want to be a call maker, he wants to be a call assembler LOL. I have a jig, but I only use it to hold the delrin in when I route out the air channel. Most all of the rest of it is done by hand. (oops- - gave away a trade secret there about using a router to do the air channel) He did not get the toneboards. I have had people ask me for one or two who did get them on the other hand.

I had a guy on another forum go to my web site and copy - almost exactly - (brass band, accent lines, lanyard cutout, body shape) - one of my crow calls and post it as his own. I have had people on this forum do the very same thing.

It's sad really. But there isn't much you can do about it. Just work harder to make your calls stand out from the crowd. In the end, if someone wants to know how you make a call, all they have to do is buy one and take it appart.

Don't think for a minute that doesn't happen either.

In the end, there will always be people who want to take shortcuts. There will always be people who want to jump on the band wagon and go along for the ride. Tehy'll jump back off when the next big "thing" comes along though.

The guys who will stick it out and continue to make great calls are they guys who love to hunt predators, because they know what it takes to call them. Guys like you, Tony, Rick, me, and a host of other predator hunters who just happen to make calls.

Guys with 10 or 20 post and then show up on E bay are just here for the ride. They're lurking, watching, and thinking all the time how to cash in on something that to a lot of us is about more than money.

In the end, that is what is going to spearate us from "them". That love of getting "Up Close and Personal" as Mr. H named his new video, with a coyote, fox, bobcat, lion or bear.

Woodturners are a dime a dozen. Predator Hunters who make calls are a million in one.

And with that, we have front moving in and I am going hunting. Predator hunting.

Have a good one

Al
THO Game Calls
 
I only brought this up, as I personally felt it was disrespectful to some of our fellow call builders. At the same time, I wanted to compliment all the PM custom call builders on the respect they have for each other and their style. I believe I stated or brought attention to what was on other call builders minds. Leave it to me to stick my thing out on this one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree that there is only so much one can do with a piece of wood or horn, when it comes to building a call. As Todd pointed out, look at cow horn howlers. They're all built on the same design, minus Brent's latex howlers. (In which I have the utmost respect for him building and improving on Rich Higgins's design...AFTER he got permission to, when Rich quit building them.) Otherwise, they are all a piece of horn, toneboard, mylar, band, and lanyard. Minus the biggest and obvious topic of the toneboard arc and design, it's the little things that each builder does with them that makes them unique. Rich Cronk has an awesome reed protector idea. Brad H has an awesome integrated lanyard idea. I would call these signature designs and would hate to see them copied. I'm sure it took a ton of hours to design and perfect both those unique things.


Derek, a buddy of yours reminded me who you were and that you and I talked on the phone about building calls. I can totally understand and believe that you didn't knowingly create a call that looked like the demon. Heck, it was only one call out of a line up of calls you turned. (nice looking lineup, by the way) That is different, however, than a series of calls that closely resemble multiple PM call builder's signature design/look.

Rick, when I see that picture of bear calls, I think RR Calls. You've established your own look on them and have been consistent with them for years. I don't think they look like Jay's. Like I said on the phone, keep after those springbok and gemsbok horn calls. You definately have something there. I've seen them up close (and actually snuck a quick squawl on one at the Globe Auction table) and they are sweet!

There are quite a few call builders that constantly bang their heads trying to come up with new, innovative, and unique designs. I know that myself, Rick, and Joe talk on the phone about it. It's a very challenging thing to do and it feels great when you do it.

As far as how close does a call need to resemble before it appears as a copy? Heck if I know? It's a personal judgment. I personally watchfor those little 'signature' things that a builder consistently does and respect them for that and use my judgement.

I can guarantee that if I mounted a .223 case into a wood call as a mouthpiece, I would be called to the mat on it...and rightfully so. That's what I'm talking about.

For the most part, the only friends I have are here on PM. I respect them and want to ensure others do as well.

Tony
 
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This is quite the thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Over the years, I have only bought 1 custom call & that was 9 years ago. Until recently, I knew about custom builders, but didn't realize how many are out there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

In the years to come, (starting this year), I am wanting to collect/use mainly custom calls. However, I refuse to buy one that hasn't been recommended by someone I feel I can trust.(primarily, veteran members of PM)

I have no hard feelings toward any other call makers. I just need proof/results showing me the call is worth my money. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
I am looking forward to getting calls from 99.9% of the makers listed on PM. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

One last comment...directed @ ninthinning: Your calls may be ok /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif, but I won't buy from someone who fails to adhere to the rules about posting your website /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. It doesn't represent you very well, IMO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
I PERSONALLY PURCHASE MY CALLS FROM PEOPLE WHO PUT BACK INTO THE SPORT. i'VE PURCHASED CALLS FROM THO AND TIMBERTOES AND OTHERS ON THIS FORUM. AS A BUYER AND NOT A MAKER, I APPRECIATE THE SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MAKING CALLS AND THEIR USE FROM THESE FINE FOLKS. I WILL CONTINUE TO PATRONIZE THESE CUSTOM CALL MAKERS ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE OF THE QUALITY OF THEIR PRODUCTS AND THE WILLINGNESS TO HELP FOLKS LIKE ME. ENOUGH SAID.
 
first of as a cnc programmer and a machinist by trade I still have no idea how you wood turners can do what you do. but I really like THO acyrilic calls. I would change the shape but it would be made out of acrylic. I really like the looks once it is polished. I think I can handle it because of the use of a cnc machine at work. I know also how to polish it. I would not be making these to sell but for personal use and as donations to people for helping me out. would this be a copy cat? not sure but once you start nit pickin then it gets worse. I so far only have one persons call and that is buckwheats. but I have intentions on buying calls that are made by craftsmen and not wannabes. the best thing you can do is put your name or brand on it. heck everything in life we buy is like that why not something that is handmade. I think it is more like a pride thing.
 
Although I have never intentionally copied someone else's call, I do believe that it's possible to do unintentionally. After I laminate the wood pieces together that I want to turn, I sit down and try to draw a call design that accents each wood layer. So even though some of my calls might come out looking similar, they are drawn up one at a time (unless someone requests one I've done before).

Having said that, I've surfed around on old duck call websites (as well as came across predator calls that I didn't know existed) and have found that I have occasionally made calls that were very similar to others...and sometimes even with similar wood combos!

Somebody said it earlier...there's only so many general shapes and designs out there for a round, 3" piece of wood.

If somebody copied my call on purpose...that really doesn't bother me either to be honest. I would hope that my call would be of a higher quality that would set it apart. Maybe...maybe not.
 
I was totally impressed with RJ's yelper design. This looks identical.
8d_1_sbl.JPG

TO WHAT OR WHO'S????
I only ask because my guy make one the same way.
And the spring buck I have had for 2 years and he isn’t a call maker here.and it was the first one i ever seen.
And the reed protector look just like nothing but the same peace of tubing I have been using for years to cover lots of thing to protect them.
I rely don’t see the big deal. Just my 2 cent





George
 
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I think it has been said what sums it up the best! There are only so many ways to turn a piece of wood. As a wood turner I always seen it as a compliment to be asked if someone could add one of my call feaatures to there design. But to be strait up, I liked for them to ask. But not everyone does and thats ok. Im sure alot of it is not done just to make a buck, and some is. It all goes back to there are only so many ways to turn a call I guess. I try to make mine stand out by my detail work and finish.

But I will be the first to contact another call maker before I use something they do that I like. It didnt take me long when I started building calls to learn this, And I do it out of respect for other call makers.

I built a call once that had the same mouth piece that another call maker used. I didnt know it was his sig series. So, I kept the call ( it is up stairs in my collection case) I never made another one of them and never will. I could of sold it a 1000 times. I just cant do that. I gave him my word that it would stay here in the case.

A few things a new woodturner can do is buy Jays book on calls. It has a ton of disigns in it and will give them a good idea of what is out there already. Also take a look at the boards, and web sites of call builders. And try to come up with a design that is there own or there own features that make there calls stand out.

There is going to be some that are made that never know they are copying someone else im sure. Stuff happens. People been turnin calls for along time! And thats what makes all of us better! Trying to stay on top of the game!

It drives us to be better call builders! And in return we give predator callers better calls!

Brent
 
Well I sure hope I didnt copy anyones design. I just picked something that was easy for me to turn on my antique lathe [shopsmith circa 1949] and what felt real comfortable in the hand and to the mouth. I have no intention on selling anyway. Just a Winter time hobby till the weather breaks.
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Al, you must of been typing your latest reply when I was and I missed it. You put it well.

Very well put Brent. With that, I believe the goal of this post has been accomplished and this thread should be done.

Tony
 
I put the kit somewhere safe and now I cant find it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
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