Looks like the ATF is at it again
- Thread starter crapshoot
- Start date
Hibs
New member
I mean, let's be totally honest... the "pistol brace" stocks is a total cheat to get around paying/getting the tax stamp for an SBR.
Now if you want to say, it's BS that you have to pay for a tax stamp for an SBR then that's a different argument. One that I would probably agree with. But to try and say, "oh hey it's BS they're trying to ban these pistol stocks"... wellll... I think ATF is in the right if they do.
And I even happen to own one. Just calling it like it is.
Now if you want to say, it's BS that you have to pay for a tax stamp for an SBR then that's a different argument. One that I would probably agree with. But to try and say, "oh hey it's BS they're trying to ban these pistol stocks"... wellll... I think ATF is in the right if they do.
And I even happen to own one. Just calling it like it is.
I use to work in a gun shop. Maybe one out of ten actually used the brace like it was meant to be used when looking at a rifle. All the rest shouldered the rifle. I have to agree with Hibs. Its just a way around the law. But I don't even own an AR so my opinion is worthless.
crapshoot
Well-known member
I don't see it as a way "around" the law when the ATF has said that even with a brace it is still a pistol and shouldering the brace is not a crime. Once a decisiin has been made, quit flip flopping everu time someone new comes in office. And i have both an sbr and a pistol lower.
I say if you disagree then don't do it yourself but as a front stay united and tell the government to pound sand.
I say if you disagree then don't do it yourself but as a front stay united and tell the government to pound sand.
varminter .223
Well-known member
Yes quit with the flip flop.....and come to the realization that owning a brace doesn't make a gun owner want to wig our and start using guns against people. The bump stock calamity set a dangerous precedent. So many sheeple just shrugged it off as oh I don't have so ya just take it away from others. It's okay cuz Trump says so. Sell out 101!
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AdamT
Well-known member
Here’s my thoughts. I don’t own a SBR or a pistol lower, but own AR style rifles and carried a Colt Commando on patrol for a while. I do think that using the “brace” on a pistol lower is a way for some people to use it as a SBR. I don’t see how the SBR Commando I had was any more lethal than the 20” barreled M16 I had in the trunk, regardless of the fire mode selected. It was easier to get in/out of the car, easier to maneuver in tight places, but LOUD AS H**L. However, the device or parts that make the firearm a SBR, full length rifle, or pistol with a brace, don’t make people do criminal acts of violence. It’s the person! But who wants to hold people accountable for their actions these days? It’s too easy to blame anything else except the person committing the action. I didn’t own or see the point in bump stocks either, but to each their own. I know plenty of people that had them, and they didn’t do anything crazy except waste ammunition.
Here’s the key, as a gun owner, hunting/shooting enthusiasts, we should stand together as a collective. If we give an inch, they’ll take a mile. It started as bump stocks, now pistol braces, what next? They already tried magazines and certain types of firearms, I’m sure we haven’t seen the end of it here in Virginia with Governor Blackface. Before long, we’ll be back to spears and longbows for hunting, but then they’ll say that won’t be ethical so they’ll come for that as well. My point is we should support each other as a community that shares a like interest and encourage people to enjoy hunting and shooting responsibly with whatever devices and firearms they enjoy most.
Here’s the key, as a gun owner, hunting/shooting enthusiasts, we should stand together as a collective. If we give an inch, they’ll take a mile. It started as bump stocks, now pistol braces, what next? They already tried magazines and certain types of firearms, I’m sure we haven’t seen the end of it here in Virginia with Governor Blackface. Before long, we’ll be back to spears and longbows for hunting, but then they’ll say that won’t be ethical so they’ll come for that as well. My point is we should support each other as a community that shares a like interest and encourage people to enjoy hunting and shooting responsibly with whatever devices and firearms they enjoy most.
Foxpro.223
Well-known member
That^^^
While anarchists are looting, rioting, and burning down cities throught the country, the batfe is focused on taking away more firearms accessories from the law abiding, speaks volumes.
Just say NO to this nonsense.
How about some indictments and lengthy prison sentences for the actors responsible for fast and furious instead.
While anarchists are looting, rioting, and burning down cities throught the country, the batfe is focused on taking away more firearms accessories from the law abiding, speaks volumes.
Just say NO to this nonsense.
How about some indictments and lengthy prison sentences for the actors responsible for fast and furious instead.
Hibs
New member
Originally Posted By: 22 ChuckMore INFRINGEMENTS!!!
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
varminter .223
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: HibsOriginally Posted By: 22 ChuckMore INFRINGEMENTS!!!
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL?
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL?
Plant.One
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: willy1947
Bought a very nice "SPIKE" AR Lower.
It is not listed as a rifle or a pistol on my 4473 or from Spike.
I can make it to a pistol or this fall I can change it to a rifle.
It is listed as "To be determined" That means I can do what I want too.
under federal law - as i understand it - how much "i can do what i want" you have is based on how you first build it.
a firearm that starts its life as a rifle can only be a rifle forever.
a firearm that starts its life as a pistol can be converted to a rifle and then back to a pistol (and then back again to a rifle if you're bored, etc).
this applies to stripped lowers too, in so much as its first configuration determines its future life. thats why your 4473 labeled it as "other" or "TBD"
now all you have to do is build it as a pistol, document it as such (even just a photo of it having a pistol buffer tube attached) and then take it down and do what you want with it.
This is a pretty common tactic for folks going the SBR route - build your firearm as a pistol to begin with (test, etc) and then once you know you have a working firearm, submit the SBR paperwork and when you get your stamp do the buffer tube removal and install a 6 position stock assembly of your choice. That way if they ever decide they want to eliminate their SBR, they can easily and legally reconfigure it as a pistol and then you're outside the constructive intent grey area for being in posession of a barrel less than 16" without owning a pistol or SBR it can be legally attached to.
a basic pistol buffer tube kit - even these days - can be had for around $30, and that gives you everything... tube, buffer, spring, castle nut & end plate - all of which is reusable once you go to install your standard 6 position stock kit.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/tacfire-ar1...15PBTK-MAR049-A
or a basic tube only is under $20 at midway
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019047338
back before everything went haywire, they were under $20 on fleabay, but yea.. not so much these days. i think i paid $12 for my buffer tube when i put my blackout pistol together.
hth
Bought a very nice "SPIKE" AR Lower.
It is not listed as a rifle or a pistol on my 4473 or from Spike.
I can make it to a pistol or this fall I can change it to a rifle.
It is listed as "To be determined" That means I can do what I want too.
under federal law - as i understand it - how much "i can do what i want" you have is based on how you first build it.
a firearm that starts its life as a rifle can only be a rifle forever.
a firearm that starts its life as a pistol can be converted to a rifle and then back to a pistol (and then back again to a rifle if you're bored, etc).
this applies to stripped lowers too, in so much as its first configuration determines its future life. thats why your 4473 labeled it as "other" or "TBD"
now all you have to do is build it as a pistol, document it as such (even just a photo of it having a pistol buffer tube attached) and then take it down and do what you want with it.
This is a pretty common tactic for folks going the SBR route - build your firearm as a pistol to begin with (test, etc) and then once you know you have a working firearm, submit the SBR paperwork and when you get your stamp do the buffer tube removal and install a 6 position stock assembly of your choice. That way if they ever decide they want to eliminate their SBR, they can easily and legally reconfigure it as a pistol and then you're outside the constructive intent grey area for being in posession of a barrel less than 16" without owning a pistol or SBR it can be legally attached to.
a basic pistol buffer tube kit - even these days - can be had for around $30, and that gives you everything... tube, buffer, spring, castle nut & end plate - all of which is reusable once you go to install your standard 6 position stock kit.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/tacfire-ar1...15PBTK-MAR049-A
or a basic tube only is under $20 at midway
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019047338
back before everything went haywire, they were under $20 on fleabay, but yea.. not so much these days. i think i paid $12 for my buffer tube when i put my blackout pistol together.
hth
reb8600
Retired PM Staff
Originally Posted By: cjclemensOriginally Posted By: varminter .223In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL? Are you sure about that. Nothing with a C&R FFL would cover an SBR. That is an FFl license for personal collection of old or collectable firearms.
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL? Are you sure about that. Nothing with a C&R FFL would cover an SBR. That is an FFl license for personal collection of old or collectable firearms.
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Originally Posted By: HibsOriginally Posted By: 22 ChuckMore INFRINGEMENTS!!!
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
How is the $200 for a suppressor and different than the "Poll tax" that used to be collected to vote ion certain states??
How so? Even if ATF outlawed pistol braces, you can still have an SBR, just pay the tax.
Or are you saying it's your RIGHT to have an SBR without paying the tax? Because, that's a whole different topic. If you are going to complain about the tax on owning an SBR, might as well complain about paying FFL transfer fees, concealed carry permit fees, fun range fees, tax on ammunition sales, etc....
In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
How is the $200 for a suppressor and different than the "Poll tax" that used to be collected to vote ion certain states??
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: cjclemensOriginally Posted By: varminter .223In IL I believe having a pistol brace is the only way you can have an AR with under a 16 inch barrel. I do not believe sbr's are allowed. So yes it is infringement. I don't believe there's anything in the second amendment regarding how your freedom should be taxed either. To me putting a fee or tax on something is another form of infringement.
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL? Are you sure about that. Nothing with a C&R FFL would cover an SBR. That is an FFl license for personal collection of old or collectable firearms.
cjclemens is 100% correct. I jumped through all the hoops in 2016. We were also really close to being able to purchase suppressors around that time, but the bill ended up nose diving right at the end.
If you have a C&R FFL, you can do an SBR in IL. The law is as ridiculous and poorly written as you can imagine, but what else can you expect from a state like IL? Are you sure about that. Nothing with a C&R FFL would cover an SBR. That is an FFl license for personal collection of old or collectable firearms.
cjclemens is 100% correct. I jumped through all the hoops in 2016. We were also really close to being able to purchase suppressors around that time, but the bill ended up nose diving right at the end.