Lethality of subsonic ammunition

J

JakeM

New member
I have long been wanting a suppressed calling rifle. Regardless of ammunition (regular or subsonic) I know that this will add another dimension to calling predators. Id love to get rid of a little muzzle blast even with supersonic conventional ammunition.

However, obviously the whole idea of a suppressor is "full" suppression and can only be achieved with subsonic ammunition..

SOO..How lethal is subsonic ammunition in say a .223, and then what is the max effective range? Or am I misinformed in thinking that there is any lethality to be had from a subsonic .223 round?

Thanks for educating a new guy,

Jake
 
Poke holes in those critters and even though they may run a bit they will die. Less speed equal less shock but a hit in the vitals will bring then down.

The bullet that killed Abe Lincoln only had a muzzle velocity of around 400 fps and it did the job.
 
I shoot subs in my 223, trailboss and 60gr. Sierra HP Varminter. 100 yards is doable but the hardest thing about sub sonic anything is the enormous drop in trajectory. I find shooting supersonic with suppressor works just fine and u don't have to worry about the trajectory so much. One thing you might consider is loading a subsonic in the chamber and if you get a shot further than you want run the bolt and load a super in, you can put a super in the magazine so all you have to do is run the bolt. Not ideal but would be something to consider.
 
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IMO hunting with sub's is not a good idea for about 98% of people with rifles. If a person MUST than a 300blk with the HEAVIEST bullet your rifle will spin is the only way to go. Also a bolt gun is MUCH more quiet than an AR platform.

A 223/556 in sub has the same energy as a 22LR so it is probably the WORST option out!

Due yourself a favor, and the animals and run supersonic loads with a can. Best thing going!
 
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223 subsonics are useless!!!! Unless you are hunting gophers in your backyard.

I've seen the results of someone shooting a deer from 15yards in the head with supsonic 223 and the deer wasn't recovered.
 
300 Blackout is the best option for Subsonic hunting, IMHO. I run 240Gr SMK's. 16" custom rem 700.
NOW-----You have to due your home work. A suppressed Subsonic weapon is fun, and stupid quiet.
But you have to really know your dope, how your will shoots, and range must be on the spot.

My 300 Bolt gun was good for 35-45 rounds before it fouled so bad it wont shoot for Crap.
I took deer from 30yrds to 240yrds. Most any went we 15yrds. Shot placement as with all hunting is paramount.

I spent may days on the range to ensure all my ballistic data was correct and accurate.

My 2cents.
 

Projectile speed has to be less than 1120 FPS.......not a lot of down range energy.

I would only use suppressed 300 BLK for close in and close range Predator removal.

I was asked by a lady to shoot some coyotes that were eating her cats and had to set up 10 yards from her bedroom window for a max 70 yard shot. That's about the limit for me.

Sound can work for you too. Watch these hogs run straight toward me. Took down the Alpha sow and they had no idea where to go even with me shooting supersonic suppressed 6.8 SPC.


 
The larger problem that I have found with sub-sonic ammo isn't about what the ballistic tables say - it's about the physical limitations of the rifles and cartridges themselves.

These are a few things that you have to live with, even before the bullet gets out of the muzzle:

[*]Twist rates for "standard loads" are different than that of twist rates for sub-sonic loads. It's REALLY hard to have your cake and eat it to. A 150grn 300Blk at 2000fps needs a different twist than a 230grn pill at 1,000fps.[*]Chamber throat and magazine length limitations can steal a lot of powder capacity from a round.[*]Bullet design for short ogive "fat" bullets made for sub-sonic work means crappy BC's, relatively.[*]Bullet construction is a crippler. Often, the heavier pills in a given caliber are designed around "standard" or "magnum" cartridges, such that they are NOT designed to expand at sub-sonic velocities. There just aren't that many bullets on the market made to expand at super slow velocities.[/list]

So if you survive those consequences, then the ballistics are the next determinant factor for me.

I'm a guy that has hunted a lot with "big and slow bullets," whether in leverguns or revolvers, as well as tinkering with them in subsonic loadings. Bullet momentum means a LOT more than kinetic energy, and throwing big pills at game is a great way to put a hole in them. There's nothing I like more than holding way over the target and throwing 200-500grns after game, because I know it's going to hit like a train when it lands.

But, there's a distinct reality in the trajectory disadvantage. For example - I used to have a 458Socom that would drop 30" at 250yrds below a 100yrd zero. Comparatively, a 30-06 drops that much at about 400yrds. I generally limit my effective range for hunting at a point where I can be off by 5yrds on my estimation and still connect. At long enough ranges, being wrong by 3yrds might mean an additional foot of drop, and a complete miss if my laser and my eye didn't get the number right. For a sub-sonic round, that "long enough range" is a heck of a lot closer than for a cartridge leaving the barrel at Mach 2.5-3.

If you're hunting in a place where you have to be super quiet, and you have the money to set up a rifle for subsonic work, then knock yourself out. Otherwise, throw a can on a super sonic rifle and call it good. It's not THAT much louder to run super-sonic stuff, especially in a large bore like 458Socom or 338Fed.

I've never been shy about going on record that I find the 300Whisper/Blackout to be a waste of good rifles.
 
There is some very good Real World info here. Suppressed hunting and shooting is some of the coolest stuff in the world but it isn't everything we would dream it to be before getting into the field and actually hunting with them. I have a column coming in the first issue of Extreme Predator Obsession online magazine discussing some Real World experiences of hunting coyotes suppressed. I am not close to being as experienced and technical as many of you guys but a season of calling suppressed gave me some observations that I hope will help up-and-coming suppressed coyote hunters to be more realistic in their expectations.

Good hunting!
 
I have to agree with most of the posts here. Subs are not a good idea if you want to recover the animal easily. Definitely don't shoot .223 subs. Look at the ballistics - it is just a very expensive, loud, unreliable .22 LR.

I've been shooting a suppressed .300 Whisper (which later became the .300 Blackout) T/C Encore for almost 10 years. I have had tremendous success shooting deer with subsonics out to 120 yards. The key is to shoot a bullet that expands at subsonic velocities (I've tried them ALL and the only bullets I shoot now are 220 gr Outlaw State Bullets), and to aim for the hardest part of the vitals you can to facilitate expansion. Quartering toward you shoulder blade shots are optimum.

I've also killed predators with my 220 subs, and even something as small as a fox will make a heck of a run after punching a big hole all the way through its vitals. Coyotes are about mid-way on the expansion spectrum, they have a little thicker hide and muscle than fox, but not nearly that of a deer. After too many "did not recover" in big-money contests, I now only shoot supers for predators.

But to counter a comment made earlier, a 1-8" twist .300 BLK will perfectly stabilize everything from a 110 gr. VMax @ 2450 FPS to a 220 gr. Outlaw @ 1020 FPS. At least both of mine do.
 
Ok, i have been hunting out in the grass and desert with a can over the past 2 years.

I have tried with and without the can.. I have seen coyotes come in with others off in the distance coming in.. Gets the heart pumping, but you know it's not going to work out simply because as soon as you light one up the rest are not going to come in..
That is until you have a can.. It just doesn't seem to bother them. They keep coming and as long as they are about 300yrds apart it doesn't scare them off. This is using normal ammo. (which sounds like a 10/22 when you shoot with regular 223 vmax ammo using either a 5.56 can and 30 cal can)

I had one stand specifically where we were sleeping all night, in the open grass. We got up after hearnig them howl all around us..

Sat and waited for the sunrise, with cooking up coffee. Then walked about 50yrds from the truck and sat down after putting the cover over the truck.
in less than a couple of minutes a coyote came in right infront of us and down it went with the can. I had to manually kick on foxbang, and then a pair started howling behind us. We looked at each other, stood up and turned around and sat right back down now facing north and the truck at out 10 o'clock. we called for a couple of minutes(really just letting the foxbang kiyi going) in comes another coyote and was shot within 30 or 40 yrds of the truck.

This all happend within 10 minutes.
We let off a howl on the call and didn't hear anything, so we stood up and laughed and each grabbed a coyote and dragged it to the truck. while we were packing up the sleeping bags and getting ready to leave, my buddy notices a coyote sunning its self on a rise in the grass about 500 yrds off to the west of us..
The sunrise was right in it's face and couldn't see us..

He walked out there until it was 300yrds on the range finder and whistled to me ( i was still packing up) and i pulled up the bino's to spot for him. When he whistled the coyote stood up and 10 seconds later i watched the third one drop in under 30 minutes and we had done 2 stands 3 coyotes, with a can and didn't distrub anything using the normal ammo.

It is a rare thing, and not the norm.. But, i think that this year we called in about 10 extra coyotes because of the can.
Continueing to call has never been more important.

The only thing that i would suggest when you do this, is to use your foot to mark the direction, and i would take a photo of the spot it dropped near with my phone through the scope..
After shooting 2 coyotes more than 10 minutes apart in grass, it can be hard really fast to remember where it dropped. We spent more time this year recovering, but it was worth it.

We later started just shutting off the call for a couple of minutes, while the shooter kept an eye on the spot, then the other one would keep watching. If nothing came, the other one would go get it, and bring it back while the shooter would watch for anything.. If something did show up. Double break of squelch on the walkies would have the retriever drop and not move until another double squelch break. (not gun fire)
He and I were in the Marines together, and have a long trusted "hunting" relationship. It's really nice to hunt with someone that you almost don't have to talk to all day since they are on the same page and it's running smooth. He likes to shoot, i could care less, so i call and spot, he shoots.. It works.
 
Here is a short video of one of our first blackout kills using the CR-MOD1, second shot was from a suppressed 22-250 using our V.A.P.R which was only a few yards beside the camera with a shotgun mic.

 
Kino M said:
IMO hunting with sub's is not a good idea for about 98% of people with rifles. If a person MUST than a 300blk with the HEAVIEST bullet your rifle will spin is the only way to go. Also a bolt gun is MUCH more quiet than an AR platform.

A 223/556 in sub has the same energy as a 22LR so it is probably the WORST option out!

Due yourself a favor, and the animals and run supersonic loads with a can. Best thing going!
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I have got two deers with a 223 and it is not the same as a 22lr at all at over 3000 fps 223 and 22lr has a max of 1300fps sorry but u are wrong .I'll trust my 223 every time I hunt.
 
txhunter79 said:
I have got two deers with a 223 and it is not the same as a 22lr at all at over 3000 fps 223 and 22lr has a max of 1300fps sorry but u are wrong .I'll trust my 223 every time I hunt.
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Just a couple points here txhunter… you’re referencing a 9 year old post for starters, but also the topic has to do with “subsonic” loads in 223 which is about 1/3 the velocity you’re referring to.

Welcome aboard by the way!
 
Kino M said:
IMO hunting with sub's is not a good idea for about 98% of people with rifles. If a person MUST than a 300blk with the HEAVIEST bullet your rifle will spin is the only way to go. Also a bolt gun is MUCH more quiet than an AR platform.

A 223/556 in sub has the same energy as a 22LR so it is probably the WORST option out!

Due yourself a favor, and the animals and run supersonic loads with a can. Best thing going!
Click to expand...
This^^^^ But I would add subsonic 45-70 type rounds to that 300blk option.

What does a subsonic 223 have that a sleepy eyed standard velocity 22 LR doesn't? Nothing.
 
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