building a civilian legal "patrolmans carbine" upper

Plant.One

Plant.One

Well-known member
there is a brilliant young lady in our family who's going to be heading to the academy this fall once she turns 21. she's already been accepted for boot camp later this summer and is ready to get some serious pre-training trigger time in this spring/summer as part of her prep. shes been around guns since she was a kidlet, can handle one decently but isnt a pro by any means.

in helping her get setup, i'd like to put togther a budget minded patrolmans carbine upper for her to practice with before she heads off to boot camp. this is not something shes going to use on the force in any way professionally. its gonna be a personal gun just to really get the feel for running an AR in a semi-tactical fashion. i'd like to keep the barrel at minimum 16" so she has options to choose muzzle devices easier, or suppress if she decides to go that route. so bearing that in mind couple questions

sights: red dot or LVPO? what are most departments using these days? and no - i'm not buying her a 1-10. i was thinking a 1-4x24 i have on the shelf, or maybe even a nicer 1-6 if her dad wanted to chip in on this little project. i have an extra romeo5 as the red dot option. so just like the LVPO please hold off on the 500 aimpoint setup suggestions and a couple hundred more for a magnififer. please keep the option to a basic 1-4 or 1-6 lvpo or the romeo5. her future department can buy her that expensive stuff. :)

also inline BUIS or offset BUIS? or no BUIS at all?

handguard: is more less or less more? ie: 12 vs 15"? which is she more likely to interact with once she hits the real world as an officer? is there a valid tactical/stragetic reason to not get a 15" handguard for a 16" barrel?

muzzle device: is there any reason not to just use a basic flash hider? obviously using a brake for indoor usage, like training in a shot house kind of thing is likely frowned upon. so should she train without one know to just be used to it? or getting a muzzle break for now to make the learning curve a bit easier better and then transition out when wherever she lands at says "this is your rifle, deal with it". she will only be shooting outdoors until she gets into formal training under the PD.

barrel profile: heavy profile? or M4? i'm leaning towards a heavy profile for this one, let her learn to move the weight and then when she gets there if they have lighter profile, it'll seem simpler to handle? please assume strength isnt a factor here.


stock: KISS with a milspec type? or at least upgrade to like a MOE or a CTR for a little better fit/finish?

anything else i'm not considering that i should?

any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

TIA!
 
I've been in LE twenty-five years, been a Firearms Instructor, Patrol Rifle Instructor, SWAT Team Commander, and ran a training company for almost fifteen years, yada, yada, yada.

The most important aspect of the AR15 patrol rifle is manipulation skills... loading, unloading, and perhaps the MOST important, clearing malfunctions with speed and confidence. The type of stock, grip, sight, etc. are all secondary and often times is dictated by agency policy.

I recommend a basic 16" AR15 with an Aimpoint Pro and standard MagPul back up sights... along with a MagPul MS1 sling or similar. The Aimpoint Pro can be had for around $350ish on the used market from reputable sites and sellers, I have over a dozen of them. Not only is it bomb proof, it holds value and really isn't that much more considering how long she will own and use the set up... besides, she might have to supply her own rifle, not every agency allows or issues rifles as stupid as that sounds. Many also have restrictions on optics.

A simple Palmetto State Armory 16" rifle kit would be a great start, along with a stripped lower receiver, then she can assemble the lower with supervision and gain knowledge and confidence in the set up. Plus she will get acclimated to the platform in it's basic form which is likely what she will have if issued a rifle by a department.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU FIND A CARBINE CLASS FOR HER TO ATTEND... yes, it can be expensive in $400-$500 range plus ammo but she will learn and enjoy more from this than just "shooting on the back forty" UNLESS you have an experienced family member that can train and guide her. It will be the BEST singular expense that will prepare her for reality. The best classes in my opinion focus the training on the basics as already mentioned concerning basic manipulations skills, avoid the "running and gunning" type stuff... it's range theatrics and while fun, really doesn't address the core fundamentals of surviving the initial seconds of a gunfight... which I also have experienced on the job with an AR15.

Best of luck to her.

ETA- if you acquire a rifle for her and find a good class, I'll chip in $100 towards the class cost. Maybe other members wouldn't mind a few bucks to help. That's how serious I am about GOOD PROPER training and making sure she gets pointed in the right direction.
 
Last edited:
Not sure where you are located but I've trained extensively with Robert "Bob" Keller of Gamut Resolutions, he's located here in Florida. He's perhaps one of the best GWOT war fighters this country has ever produced. He stresses the basics and that's what drew me to him. When I was running my training business, he would come to my place about twice a year and give classes. To this day he still tosses me class seats for my patrol folks. He loves law enforcement and has provided countless hours of free training various agencies.

Here are a few videos of his perspectives on the topic of fighting with a gun and training...



 
Actually we're very lucky at our gun club we have a excellent trainer locally (mark stout) who runs carbine classes for members a couple of times a year at a steep discount that has a similar background to yours. And its not the rolling on the groud tacticool sillyness. His class is a qualifier for the center mass national patrol rifle championships, and as part of the class attendees actually shoot the same patrol rifle qualification course thats run by one of the large local metro deteoit area PD's. Depending on timing if one of his classes does happen to pop up before she heads off to boot we're definitely going to stuff her in that already.

So that's already in the works - but thanks so much for that recommendation as well!

She already does have a stripped lower so she will be assembling the rest of the rifle herself, I'm just trying to put together the upper for her. Bca's been running some really good deals on stainless uppers, and I pretty much have everything else here to to do the rest.

I will say thank you for the sling recommendation- I absolutely was not thinking of that at all. Consider that added to my list.

I also need to get some extra dummy rounds for malfunction drills too


I will also share those videos with her as well.


also I really appreciate the offer the donation for training. I will keep that in mind.

I already have a Romeo 5. I lucked out and picked up a couple of them when the model change over happened here just recently at a really good price.

So like I said I was more of optic a optic b based on what I have around. for now I'm pretty sure that the Romeo 5 will hold over what she needs to do to get some early practice in before she heads off to Academy and then she can use what's provided to her there. I'm just trying to get her a little bit of an early jump:)
 
Last edited:
Plant.One said:
Actually we're very lucky at our gun club we have a excellent trainer locally (mark stout) who runs carbine classes for members a couple of times a year at a steep discount that has a similar background to yours. And its not the rolling on the groud tacticool sillyness. His class is a qualifier for the center mass national patrol rifle championships, and as part of the class attendees actually shoot the same patrol rifle qualification course thats run by one of the large local metro deteoit area PD's. Depending on timing if one of his classes does happen to pop up before she heads off to boot we're definitely going to stuff her in that already.

So that's already in the works - but thanks so much for that recommendation as well!

She already does have a stripped lower so she will be assembling the rest of the rifle herself, I'm just trying to put together the upper for her. Bca's been running some really good deals on stainless uppers, and I pretty much have everything else here to to do the rest.

I will say thank you for the sling recommendation- I absolutely was not thinking of that at all. Consider that added to my list.

I also need to get some extra dummy rounds for malfunction drills too


I will also share those videos with her as well.


also I really appreciate the offer the donation for training. I will keep that in mind.

I already have a Romeo 5. I lucked out and picked up a couple of them when the model change over happened here just recently at a really good price.

So like I said I was more of optic a optic b based on what I have around. for now I'm pretty sure that the Romeo 5 will hold over what she needs to do to get some early practice in before she heads off to Academy and then she can use what's provided to her there. I'm just trying to get her a little bit of an early jump:)
Click to expand...

Send me your name/address via PM, I have a bag of dummy .223 rounds I'd be more than happy to send a handful free of charge.
 
One of the best expenditures of ammo one can do is a simple "Ready Up" drill. The one constant in a gun fight is bringing the rifle up, getting a sight picture, taking off the safety, and cleanly pressing the trigger.

The second habit one needs to develop is STAYING ON TARGET after the shot vs. dropping the muzzle, you see folks come off gun a lot after a shot, that's not good for gun fighting. It's called SECONDARY SIGHT PICTURE.

The most important shot you take in a gun fight is the first one... train to end gun fights, not be in one.

Here are two videos from a while back where I simply practiced doing ready ups... safety comes off as rifle comes up. Notice on the two missed shots I'm still on target and the follow up shot is quick.





YouTube

Sorry but I get motivated when it comes to training...
 
22magnum22 said:
Most likely not a price tag. Probably a descriptor for the owner of more than 1 firearm of like kind.
Click to expand...

Bingo... I have about sixty-five AR15's in various flavors. I also have a few firearms in my custody that belong to my brother. I sometimes tag them after changing optics to remind me if it needs sighting in. That specific rifle... that day... I can't remember why I had a tag on it... most likely a note to zero and part of the reason I was at the range that morning.
 
I would run the Romeo 5 with standard co-witnessed Magpul buis. Sig red dots are every bit as tough as she is gonna need and their batteries last forever with shake awake tech. Maybe swap out the base with the UTG slim mount. I would spend the money on getting her a good barrel and ALG QMS trigger, so she can start training with mil spec pull weight.
 
Plant.One said:
there is a brilliant young lady in our family who's going to be heading to the academy this fall once she turns 21. she's already been accepted for boot camp later this summer and is ready to get some serious pre-training trigger time in this spring/summer as part of her prep. shes been around guns since she was a kidlet, can handle one decently but isnt a pro by any means.

in helping her get setup, i'd like to put togther a budget minded patrolmans carbine upper for her to practice with before she heads off to boot camp. this is not something shes going to use on the force in any way professionally. its gonna be a personal gun just to really get the feel for running an AR in a semi-tactical fashion. i'd like to keep the barrel at minimum 16" so she has options to choose muzzle devices easier, or suppress if she decides to go that route. so bearing that in mind couple questions

sights: red dot or LVPO? what are most departments using these days? and no - i'm not buying her a 1-10. i was thinking a 1-4x24 i have on the shelf, or maybe even a nicer 1-6 if her dad wanted to chip in on this little project. i have an extra romeo5 as the red dot option. so just like the LVPO please hold off on the 500 aimpoint setup suggestions and a couple hundred more for a magnififer. please keep the option to a basic 1-4 or 1-6 lvpo or the romeo5. her future department can buy her that expensive stuff. :)

also inline BUIS or offset BUIS? or no BUIS at all?

handguard: is more less or less more? ie: 12 vs 15"? which is she more likely to interact with once she hits the real world as an officer? is there a valid tactical/stragetic reason to not get a 15" handguard for a 16" barrel?

muzzle device: is there any reason not to just use a basic flash hider? obviously using a brake for indoor usage, like training in a shot house kind of thing is likely frowned upon. so should she train without one know to just be used to it? or getting a muzzle break for now to make the learning curve a bit easier better and then transition out when wherever she lands at says "this is your rifle, deal with it". she will only be shooting outdoors until she gets into formal training under the PD.

barrel profile: heavy profile? or M4? i'm leaning towards a heavy profile for this one, let her learn to move the weight and then when she gets there if they have lighter profile, it'll seem simpler to handle? please assume strength isnt a factor here.


stock: KISS with a milspec type? or at least upgrade to like a MOE or a CTR for a little better fit/finish?

anything else i'm not considering that i should?

any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

TIA!
Click to expand...
This. Similar credentials, 33rd year. We run Colt M4s short bbl for patrol and our tac team. Aimpoint pro optic. If you can legally purchase a LE 6920 you can’t loose. My personal gun is just that in a 16” barrel. I’ve made some tweaks and upgrades( Trigger group most notably), but it’s a great, timeless platform.
 
Back
Top