20 Gauge vs. 12 Gauge

H

HOGGHEAD

New member
Now I realize the obvious differences between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge. However I am trying to get a better understanding of the "killing" ability of the 20 gauge.

We all know the 12 gauge load is heavier. So you have the ability to put more shot on target. I understand that also.

However doesn't the 20 gauge shot travel as fast as 12 gauge?? So wouldn't the 20 gauge shot hold the same energy as the 12 gauge at any distance??

I shoot skeet with an older fellow and he actually shoots with a 410. And he beats me every time. His adage is "accuracy is king". He says it only takes one BB to break a bird, and he shoots well enough to prove his point.

So wouldn't a person with an accurate 20 gauge be just as deadly on game as a person who shoots a 12 gauge if he can put his shot on target??

In other words how many pieces of shot on target does it take to kill a raccoon or coyote or turkey?? Tom.
 
A 20 gauge will kill anything that a 12 gauge will kill.The pellets out of a 20 gauge have the same stopping power that the pellets out of a 12 gauge have.There just aren't as many pellets flying towards the target as I'm sure you already know.So to answer your question.Yes a 20 gauge will kill a critter just as dead as a 12 gauge will.It just won't have as many holes in it.
I'm not sure how many hits it takes to kill a raccoon or a coyote but I killed a turkey one time and it had only been hit twice as far as I could tell.One pellet hit it in the neck and another one hit it in the head.The range of the target had alot to do with why I didn't hit it more times than I did.Which also has alot to do with how effective a shotgun is gonna be.
The size of shot you're shootin has alot to do with how many hit's it takes to kill something also.For example if you're shootin at a coyote with 00 buckshot and only one pellet hit's the coyote in the brain it's gonna be a done deal for the coyote.But if you were shootin at the same coyote with #4 shot you'd want all of the pellets connecting with the yote.If I'm wrong about somethin and someone notices please correct me.But that's just my 2 cents worth.
 
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coyote are real tough. by patterning your shotgun it will tell you how many pellets will hit the coyote at a given distance. a 12 will carry a heavier load. hopefully that means more on the target area. my 20 has taken quite a few. i patterned it. i shot the coyotes that were close.
 

Hogg,

I shoot 28, 20, 12, and 10 gauge shotguns at various game
animals. I shoot small shot for birds, buck shot for
predators, and slugs for deer. For small shot, it is all
about the accumulative energy from multiple pellet strikes,
with enough penetration to get through breasts and bones.
Any shot shell can kill with the "Golden BB", as shown often
in clays shooting, but getting enough pellets of sufficient
size on target is the determination of lethality in scatter
guns.

All of the shotguns I shoot can handle loads exiting the
barrel between 1200 fps to 1500 fps, provided they launch
at safe pressures. So if a grouse should get hit by 5 #7.5
pellets under 40 yards to reliably kill, then when patterning
with a given choke and shot shell the combo puts 5 pellets in
a 4" circle, at 40 yards, I would consider that shotgun good
to go grouse/quail/pheasant hunting. It really doesn't
matter what gauge the shotgun is as long as it is capable
of putting enough pellets on target.

So the short answer is yes a 20 ga. can be as effective as
a 12 ga. The pellets can leave the muzzle at the same
speed, but the fewer pellets in the shot stream means
either tighter chokes or shorter ranges.

Squeeze
 
Originally Posted By: Squeeze
Hogg,

I shoot 28, 20, 12, and 10 gauge shotguns at various game
animals. I shoot small shot for birds, buck shot for
predators, and slugs for deer. For small shot, it is all
about the accumulative energy from multiple pellet strikes,
with enough penetration to get through breasts and bones.
Any shot shell can kill with the "Golden BB", as shown often
in clays shooting, but getting enough pellets of sufficient
size on target is the determination of lethality in scatter
guns.

All of the shotguns I shoot can handle loads exiting the
barrel between 1200 fps to 1500 fps, provided they launch
at safe pressures. So if a grouse should get hit by 5 #7.5
pellets under 40 yards to reliably kill, then when patterning
with a given choke and shot shell the combo puts 5 pellets in
a 4" circle, at 40 yards, I would consider that shotgun good
to go grouse/quail/pheasant hunting. It really doesn't
matter what gauge the shotgun is as long as it is capable
of putting enough pellets on target.

So the short answer is yes a 20 ga. can be as effective as
a 12 ga. The pellets can leave the muzzle at the same
speed, but the fewer pellets in the shot stream means
either tighter chokes or shorter ranges.

Squeeze


Very well said, Squeeze.
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Squeeze and Hidalgo have summed it up nicely for you.

I would add that you can compensate to some degree between the 12ga and the 20ga by going to slightly larger shot. It also helps to use the heavy loads (1 oz) and a powder like Longshot to get it moving near 1300 fps. The greater penetration and better per pellet energy helps, providing the load patterns well from your shotgun. Using a full or extra-full can also make up part of the difference.

We have some pretty tough and skittish roosters here in South Dakota, but with the right loads the 20 gauge will put them down hard. I have never used a 20ga shotgun for predators so I can't say how effective they are. I have a friend that is a retired SD State Trapper that only uses a 12ga for the hundreds of Coyotes he has shot on the job.
 
I have no experience with a 20 on predators but I know for fact the 20 gauge will perform as well if not better on waterfowl with steel loads. Ive folded a bunch of ducks way out there with a little 20. I would not hesitate one bit,to take it calling for bigger game.
 
Originally Posted By: muddydogI have no experience with a 20 on predators but I know for fact the 20 gauge will perform as well if not better on waterfowl with steel loads. Ive folded a bunch of ducks way out there with a little 20. I would not hesitate one bit,to take it calling for bigger game.

Why is it then that the goose and crane hunters shoot big 12's and 10 gauges? I don't know that I'm buying into this "the 20 gauge is as effective on bigger game" stuff. I'm not a waterfowler, but I dang sure ain't swapping my 12's for 20's for coyote hunting.
 
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: muddydogI have no experience with a 20 on predators but I know for fact the 20 gauge will perform as well if not better on waterfowl with steel loads. Ive folded a bunch of ducks way out there with a little 20. I would not hesitate one bit,to take it calling for bigger game.

Why is it then that the goose and crane hunters shoot big 12's and 10 gauges? I don't know that I'm buying into this "the 20 gauge is as effective on bigger game" stuff. I'm not a waterfowler, but I dang sure ain't swapping my 12's for 20's for coyote hunting.

Gary's right. While I do a good amount of shooting with the 20, there is no way that the 20 can stand up to the 12 ... or 10. The problem is not speed with lighter loads (where the 20 can hold it's own) but rather when using heavier loads. The 20 just can't hold enough powder (at safe pressures) to send the amount of shot downrange at a significant pace to penetrate like the 12 can. Geese, larger ducks, cranes, and other hard-to-kill animals can be taken with the 20, but I'd much prefer to have the 12 with 1.5oz or so of shot traveling at 1300fps, rather than the alternatives that the 20 gives in those situations. I've never hunted a coyote with the 20ga, but the ballistics apply no matter what the given target may be.
 
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: muddydogI have no experience with a 20 on predators but I know for fact the 20 gauge will perform as well if not better on waterfowl with steel loads. Ive folded a bunch of ducks way out there with a little 20. I would not hesitate one bit,to take it calling for bigger game.

Why is it then that the goose and crane hunters shoot big 12's and 10 gauges? I don't know that I'm buying into this "the 20 gauge is as effective on bigger game" stuff. I'm not a waterfowler, but I dang sure ain't swapping my 12's for 20's for coyote hunting.

GC,

I don't need to tell you this, but for others it is all about
pellet count and pellet velocity.

I hunt high speed hard to kill diving ducks. Most of the
time I shoot my Browning Gold 10 ga. Last year, on one
trip, I was killing ducks quickly, so to stretch out the
morning, I put the 10 ga. away, and got out my sweet little
Beretta 20 ga. I have 3" loads in Hevi-Shot, handloaded
Bismuth and Hevi-Shot, and Winchester factory steel loads for
the 20 ga. I limited my self to 35 yards rather than 45 yards
with the Mighty 10. I crippled two ducks and even with a
an exception Chesapeake Bay retrieving dog, they were lost.
I put the sweet little 20 ga. away, and got the 10 ga. back
out. Even though the 20 ga. can kill well, in this situation
with heavy aquatic vegetation, it did not kill cleanly enough
for my ethics to allow me to continue shooting it.

Now if some situation dictated that I only could shoot the
20 ga. I would even limit my range more, and possibly installed
a tighter choke.

Squeeze
 
Another thing holding the 20 ga back below the 12 ga on big birds and coyotes is the selection of shells.

In the 20 ga there are not very many "if any" good coyote loads to choose from. You pretty much have to reload your own shells to get some good coyote loads for the 20 ga.

Years ago I reloaded some 1 oz 20 ga loads with lead BBB and lead T shot for kids to shoot when I took them coyote calling.

I only saw two coyotes shot at with the 1 oz of lead BBB shot reloads. Both coyotes died on the spot but both coyotes were shot at less than 30 yards away.
 
The 20 gauge will never be popular for waterfowl for many of the stated reasons. With the arrival of steel shot it didn't get any better. Hevi-Shot has been a big help over steel.

In order for a shotgun to deliver the maximum killing effectiveness on a target at ranges over 45 yards, there are several optimum factors that should be considered. Velocity at the target distance, pellet density on the target, weight or mass of the individual pellets, hardness of the pellets, roundness or shape of the pellets, and diameter of the pellets are all important. Anything that diminishes or limits any one or more of these factors will lessen the lethality. These factors don't account for the "Golden BB" since that is strictly a matter of luck.

Smaller game will not require the same total lethality of larger more robust species. You can certainly find instances of a .410 killing a goose but I wouldn't count on it being effective in a majority of hunting conditions.

I noticed that nobody mentioned the difference in the length of the stot-strings. A pattern board will not show you how that affects the number of pellets that actually hit a flying target. Taller shot charges tend to string out more than short charges. This is partly why the 10 gauge is superior to the 12 gauge with the same charge weight.

All this technical BS boils down to using a shotgun that can deliver a consistantly killing charge at the maximum range you intend to shoot. If you can call your coyotes into less than 30 yards it won't make much difference between a 12 and a 20 gauge. After all, dead is dead.
 
For smaller stuff with the smaller shot sizes the 20 has plenty of pattern density and very little disadvantage. For larger stuff like Turkey you need to reduce your max range by 10 yards over a 12 gauge. If you keep your shots on Turkeys to 35 yards or less the 20 gauge will work fine.
 
I load all my own heavy shells. So shell selection is not a problem.

I just brought this up to have a good discussion.

Here is what I have noticed.

First off I realize you need to pattern any shotgun and any load.

Second you need to determine POI of your shot at different distances.

Here is my exerience. When I put a scope on my shotgun my shot patterns went up considerably. Not because of more shot, but obviously because of a better aiming system.

Even with 2-3/4" 12 gauge shells I was putting more shot into the actual turkey head targest than the fellows using 3-1/2" loads with a standard shotgun ribbed barrel.

That is why I brought this up.

My question is basic. If I shoot the same shot size as a 12 gauge, and the shot leaves the barrel at the same velocity. Then I am assuming that each particular piece of shot will have the same killing efficacy at the same compared distance?? I can not see how the 20 gauge shot would slow down faster??

I have hunted geese. And the hunter wants as much shot as he can put into the air. I understand that. But you are talking about a fast moving target.

Normally a turkey is standing still. Or I wait for that shot. I am not nearly a well enough accomplished coyote hunter to make a statement like that, so I will refrain.

Just a fun topic. But how much actual shot is required to kill a coyote?? Wouldn't less shot, as long as it is enough shot be the sought after load to save pelts?? Tom.
 
Here is my take on the discussion, for pitching my two cents worth in. I take it that you are trying to make a case for the 20 gauge to be as effective for calling predators as the 12 gauge. I don't think it is and for the same reason a 3 1/2" 10 gauge is a better out right killer than a 3" 12 gauge. It's just a case of a good small fighter loosing to a good larger fighter - sometimes size does matter. I'll make a case for the 3" 12 gauge as a good compromise, a small enough overall weapon platform to be lightweight, fairly compact, fast handling, and effective to a reasonable distance. A Big Ten might kill farther, but the sheer size and weight of the guns is problematic if you are packing them long distances over rough country. A 20 gauge can certainly be lighter, more compact, and even faster handling than a 3" 12 gauge. But the range limitations of its shot load will leave you wanting in many situations that would be a piece of cake for a 3" 12 gauge. Which brings us back full circle as a 3" 12 gauge being a really good compromise as an all around package. Under 35 yards, probably doesn't make too much difference. Over that...
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Originally Posted By: GCHere is my take on the discussion, for pitching my two cents worth in. I take it that you are trying to make a case for the 20 gauge to be as effective for calling predators as the 12 gauge.

No not really. I just had a friend give me a 20 gauge barrel with base and rings for my Encore. And I wanted to use it to hunt with. I really like the Encore platform. And I thought if I could load my own 20 gauge shells(3"), and with the ability to put a scope on the barrel. I thought it might be an effective killer of critters such as raccoons, turkeys, and a few coyotes. I was thinknig if I could work up a good load and with the added accuracy of a scope, I could make it work effectively?? Tom.
 
Originally Posted By: GCHere is my take on the discussion, for pitching my two cents worth in. I take it that you are trying to make a case for the 20 gauge to be as effective for calling predators as the 12 gauge. I don't think it is and for the same reason a 3 1/2" 10 gauge is a better out right killer than a 3" 12 gauge. It's just a case of a good small fighter loosing to a good larger fighter - sometimes size does matter. I'll make a case for the 3" 12 gauge as a good compromise, a small enough overall weapon platform to be lightweight, fairly compact, fast handling, and effective to a reasonable distance. A Big Ten might kill farther, but the sheer size and weight of the guns is problematic if you are packing them long distances over rough country. A 20 gauge can certainly be lighter, more compact, and even faster handling than a 3" 12 gauge. But the range limitations of its shot load will leave you wanting in many situations that would be a piece of cake for a 3" 12 gauge. Which brings us back full circle as a 3" 12 gauge being a really good compromise as an all around package. Under 35 yards, probably doesn't make too much difference. Over that...
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+1

Very Well Said!

GC and I have pattenered a lot of shot shells.

I read a lot on these threads about "limiting your range"...right....like if a coyote comes in at 38 yards you are automatically going to tell yourself he is too far...to heck with that...I'm going to sling some lead at him.

I was shocked when I patterned my 20g 1100 with my modified choke with #3 bucksht that is my favorite dove gun....it would be like shooting blanks at coyotes.

Do yourself a favor, forget 20ga for coyotes...too many reasons to even list. You would be better off with a single barrel Rossi 12ga 3" magnum from a local pawn shop for $65.

I hunted for years with an Ithaca Auto Mag 10 ga with a 32" full choke, then later with a Browning Gold 10ga auto, you are talking about some serious fire power. I went to a 12ga 3" mag due to portability, real good middle ground. Predator hunters, pick your choice of a 12ga 3" mag and have at it.

I want a Beretta Extrema 3" mag with it's very little recoil, my Beretta 390 has little recoil, the Extrema has even less so they say...

The whole discussion on 20ga for yotes is good for general discussion, but a [beeep] stupid idea for pratical application.
 
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Originally Posted By: ackleyman

The whole discussion on 20ga for yotes is good for general discussion, but a [beeep] stupid idea for pratical application.

Now ... THAT was "well said".
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Kinda reminds me of the 17HMR/22WMR/22LR discussions. They "will" kill a coyote ... but WHY ?
 


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