17wsm vs 17Hornet/Fireball/Rem (fox/yote)

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I’m shopping around for my first dedicated predator rifle and I’m torn between the 17 WSM and the 17 fireball/Remington/hornet.

There are a ton of fox in my area, greys and reds, and I would prefer not to blow them in half when I shoot, which is why I am choosing 17 caliber rounds... But, we also have a pretty good coyote population and I want to make sure they die quickly. I’m not one of those guys that doesn’t care where I hit a coyote and it’s just glad it’s dead. I still respect the [beeep] out of them and want them to die quickly. I consider myself a pretty [beeep] good shot and I would be very very surprised if I ever shoot more than 150 yards or so. 200 is possible but only in a few places that I have to travel to hunt

Can you guys give me your feedback on these calibers... And if you have one for sale, please message me
 
Price idk what your regulations are but here in Arkansas the 22 hornet is a legal deer caliber and I absolutely love my cz 22 hornet. I’m just itching to kill predators with it if they'll just respond to my calls. But all the reading I’ve done suggested 22 hornet was good on Fox, cats, and coyotes and I’m able to shoot deer if I see one.
 
All I have experience with is the .17WSM and it does great on fur. The grey fox I shot with it didn't even twitch and it was a less than ideal angle. Hit it quartering sway from me on the run at relatively close range. The bullet didn't exit.

It's more than enough gun for coyotes as well. Put it right behind their shoulder and they may run but it won't be far.
 
I have a 17 WSM and 17 Fireball.

For areas where shots are likely under 150 yards:
If hunting where fox/bobcat more likely than coyote then 17 WSM 25 grain is my go to gun.
If hunting where coyote more likely than fox then 17 Fireball 30 grain is my go to gun.
 
I own a 17wsm, and I like it a lot for what I do with it (mostly woodchuck'n). I had a lot of issues with it until Savage finally agreed to swap my B-mag out with the heavy barrel (this was back when they first came out).

I would only choose the 17wsm for situations such as MI when you can only use rimfire on state land. Anything other than that I would opt for a center fire for the simple fact that with a little time spent I'm confident I get find a hand load that will shoot well.

Just my .02
 

Originally Posted By: baitpile.........Also, remember, just because its a .17 cal Hornet/Rem/Fireball doesn't mean it won't blow them in half. Speed can have some nasty effects.
I don’t have a specific answer to your question of a specific cartridge for fox, but I do have a comment pertaining to speed also being destructive, as Baitpile mentioned. I have shot several red and gray fox with a centerfire .17 Remington, shooting 25 gr. Hornady HP’s at an average of 3921 fps. It makes a mess. I believe lower velocity .17 caliber rounds will be more fur friendly. However, that same .17 Rem load on coyotes is pure death, generally dropping them on the spot, and I have yet to get an exit. Very fur friendly on coyotes, but not so with thin-skinned fox.

 
The challenge with a dual purpose gun is the size difference between fox and coyotes. Fox are pretty small in comparison; about a quarter of the mass. If fox and saving fur are the primary objective, the .22 wmr is the tried and true standard. On the flip side, it’s less than ideal for coyotes but plenty have been killed with that caliber. I shoot .22 hornet, .222, and .223. Even the hornet can be a bit stiff on fox if saving the fur is your top priority. I don’t have any .17s, but I think the center fires would be a bit much on fox, with the exception of the .17 hornet. I wish the gun selection was better on the .17 wsm and hornet; I’d be inclined to give one a try if that were the case. I think the .22 hornet is apt to be the best compromise, but that’s just what it is... a compromise.
 
Sorry for posting late. I've been away for awhile. In regards to the 17 Hornet. Its deadly. I have taken coyotes past 200yds DRT. Reds and Greys from 25 to 175yds DRT. I mainly call at night and usually I'm shooting under 200yds. I will also say this if you can find the components to reload, do so. I shot one coyote at 120yds with 20gr.Vmax It was my very first kill with the 17. It was straight on shot. The round hit 1/2 inch to the left center chest, the round penetrated 17 inches an blew 1 1/2 hole after hitting the last rib. I then purchased 20gr and 25grHp. and started experimenting. I wanted the round to penetrate then expand rapidly and expend all its energy inside so not to exit. Using a chronographer , my reloads are traveling around 2950FPS. I found that by slowing it down, under 3000 fps. I have not yet experienced any spinners, nor runners. Shot placement has been straight on chest and broadside behind the shoulder. I have not experienced any fur damage. Out of curiosity, I have preformed Necropsy on coyotes and fox to better understand what happens when the bullet hits. Anyone interested in viewing these pics. I will send them to you. They are to graphic to post, and I will not give any extra ammo to the antis.
 
Oh I forgot to mention Just last week I tested the penetration of the factory 17 Hornet 25gr.HP. Not that I plan on shooting a deer with it, I was just curious about penetration. So I set up a cardboard box, I put a folded up frozen deer hide inside. Behind the hide I put in a rib cage and a spine section. I set this up at 120yds. I fired 2 rounds. Both rounds went completely thru and out the other side of the box will little expansion. Not satisfied, I decided to put the spine and ribs in front of the box. I then fired 2 more shots. Upon hitting bone first, Both rounds blew 1/2" to 3/4" hole thru the box, thru the hide and exited the box. So if it were a live deer standing broadside, the round would penetrate thru the hide and if it hit rib would put a hole along with bone and frags into the lungs. I doubt it would ever leave the chest cavity. However on a fox it may. On a coyote its possible.
 
have you considered a wetpack test? where you soak up a bunch of newspaper in a box with as much water as it'll hold and shoot it after you drain off the excess water?

its not a perfect sub for meat... but its probably one of the closer things you can get without using gel
 
No I haven't. I have tried 2 litter soda bottles filled with water at 170yds. Factory 25gr.HP Rounds go right thru without blowing the bottle apart or even moving bottle. Which was in itself was amazing to me, I was expecting to see them blow up in the scope. Cans of beans at 50 yds. would blow the can into numerous pieces and rain down beans, whether I used 20gr.Vmax or Factory 25gr.HP. Apples and nectarines would explode at 200yds. Oh, ya Shooting rabbits in the head at 50yds. Looked like the fruit. Lol
 
well your bottle thing may be due to impact velocity vs the design threshold of the bullet.

ie: it mihgt only be engineered to expand at >1800 fps, and by 170 its maybe only 1500 and basically ice-picking through the bottles.

where the vmax are designed for a minimum 1600 fps expansion velocity, which without running the numbers more than likely (due to higher starting velocity) guarantees them a farther range to stay above that expansion threshold and operate correctly.

i'll try to find some time this weekend to run the numbers and dig up the expansion thresholds for the bullets - but those bits of info are going to be critical for success in the bullets working the way we expect them to when metal meets meat. thats also why i recommended the wetpack test - you should have a really good chance of recovering your projectile and seeing what its doing at various distances.

i mean.. any bullet (fmj, steel core, ect) can kill - but that requires either sustained velocity to cause a permanent wound channel through just sheer disruption/shockwave, or direct contact with something vital. with most modern engineered hunting projectiles - once you fall below the velocity threshold of expansion for the bullet, your chances of success go way down simply because we're also below that shockwave velocity threshold as well by that time.

So if we dont get expansion as designed - you dont get nearly the energy transfer we're expecting and therefore a minimal permanent wound channel.
 
A 17 Hornet 25gr HP @ 2950fps muzzle velocity has a 175 yard disadvantage over a 17 Remington.

Meaning a 17 Hornet at 0 yards is the same as a 17 Rem at 175 yards.

Or, a 17 Hornet at 50 yards is the same as 17 Rem at 225 yards.

Or, a 17 Hornet at 100 yards is the same as 17 Rem at 275 yards.

Or, a 17 Hornet at 200 yards is the same as a 17 Rem at 375 yards. That's really starting to stretch it's legendary effectiveness which relies on velocity.

I hunted with a 17 Rem for a while and it was fun. Sold it when I had to go lead free.
 
The 17 Hornet was primarily design for Prairie dogs, not Fox and coyotes. Everyone knows its not a coyote killer unless its under 100yds LOL. I agree bullets types by designed preform a certain way and can be altered by velocity to an extent. Once Velocity goes above 3000 fps. Fur really starts to tear at close range. When testing, I discovered that increasing the velocity made these rounds come apart quicker and were more destructive on the surface. Fearing that they may tear a large hole, or have a splash effect, which I did not want when shooting fox. Especially if I shot one at 25yds. Ii started slowing them down(of course still maintaining a group that I felt was accurate enough) I was able to keep the bullet intact long enough to get just inside and then violently expand and expend all its energy. Now mind you at the time I only had killed one animal. It was a coyote at 120yds with a factory 20gr.Vmax upon examination I found that the bullet traveled 17 inches thru him and blew 1 1/2 inch hole on exit. People on form saying you cant kill a coyote OK. I must of been lucky. But the fact is, the damage. So I tested. Well I'm lucky, I have shot numerous fox and coyotes, the closes 25yds, the farthest 235yds. All Dropped where they stood, no spinning, no running and no fur damage.
 
Oh I agree with you. I never had one. What I read its a real killer. out to 400 yds. on coyotes. I shoot more fox then coyotes and my shots are usually less then 200yds. In fact I took a buddy out last night and he missed a coyote with his 223 at 150, 160 yds. on one stand. We called in 3 fox, one on one stand, two on another, however couldn't get them to venture from in the woods into the field. Trust me I was trying to find some kind of opening in the brush to send a round. From our position the farthest may have been 80yds. Thou I like the 17 Rem. I think its too much gun for my purpose.
 
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